CNC Options

[VictOr358]

Master Shane, I'm not here to discuss the pricing of such complex shapes to be either CNC'd or hand art'd, but I'd like to state, that the design I see here (and the choice of materials) is as perfect as it gets. The scythe shape is not the type common to Russian environment, but it is like 30 times more badass! And mixing wood, metal and crystalline substance is a brave act by itself. I wish to see more scythes of yours, less "up side down crosses".

 

[BWGuitars]

Warrior bought one of Ron's older CNC machines.... uh.. no... and to be fair.. perhaps Ron actually hates Warrior as much as I do..

Look up CNC Stepper Motor Driver Systems & Hobby CNC Routers:: PROBOTIX™ and check into their fireball series.

they have several size machines that could be perfect for inlays and fingerboards.

I'm seriously looking at them right now for their "Meteor" model.

I can't comment on their tables, but all my electronics on my machine came from Probotix, and closing in on a year, I've had satisfactory reliability out of them thus far. The couple times I had to call for support the customer service was great. They seem to be a pretty solid company all around.

 

[evolved_insanity]

Has anybody used the iCarve models? How were they compared to others? Obviously they are not $10k - $15k machines but will they do for the hobbyist?

 

[ihavenofish]

That Fireball Meteor looks like a great price point. 25"x50" $4000 complete? That almost seems too cheap. ;-)

Peter

its cheap cause its very low grade. there are many many machines better than that for similar or lower prices.

 

[ihavenofish]

Has anybody used the iCarve models? How were they compared to others? Obviously they are not $10k - $15k machines but will they do for the hobbyist?

atlas tools got some of the general machines in, they had the little one on display. noone likes them, and i dont think they are selling well. what theyve done is basically take a $2200 chines machine and run it through a high markup retail chain of distributors.

 

[ihavenofish]

No hijack intended, but Ihavenofish, What Italian spindles are there competing with the Chinese ones? I'd basically not found any viable alternatives anywhere in the ballpark even if you figure you have to replace the Chinese VFD immediately.
The guys I've spoken with running the Chinese spindles for mill work including aluminum have had nothing but good things to say, aside from you'll need to rebuild or replace the spindle about once a year if you're doing all day production work.

teknomotor, its about $600-700 for a 1hp er20 spindle with delta drive. another $100 or so for the smaller 30000rpm model.

thats roughly the same as a chinese watercooled kit with drive and pump from a reputable source - and will perform better and last longer. its also faster, which is critical with the tiny bits used for inlays.

i know you can get the chinese ones for about $350-400 with a drive direct, but honestly just not worth it.

you have to remember as i said... theres a big difference between having fun on the weekends, and needing a machine that will always work when you have a deadline. i have a strong feeling shane falls in the latter group.

 

[rabidhamster]

teknomotor, its about $600-700 for a 1hp er20 spindle with delta drive. another $100 or so for the smaller 30000rpm model.

thats roughly the same as a chinese watercooled kit with drive and pump from a reputable source - and will perform better and last longer. its also faster, which is critical with the tiny bits used for inlays.

i know you can get the chinese ones for about $350-400 with a drive direct, but honestly just not worth it.

you have to remember as i said... theres a big difference between having fun on the weekends, and needing a machine that will always work when you have a deadline. i have a strong feeling shane falls in the latter group.

~800 bucks including a delta drive IS pretty great sounding, especially if it really does last longer. The Chinese does have the er20 collett and more horsepower, but 30krpm would be better than 24krpm for inlay work for sure... Does the teknomotor come with a water pump as well, or are you talking about their air-cooled ones? I'm always partial to ecoplus pumps, they just won't quit.
I'm definitely with you on reliability and making deadlines, thats what a spindle is for in the first place. I get the impression most people eventually buy another Chinese spindle for backup when using it intensively. I see teknomotor has a 1 year warranty. Have you had the chance to A/B the two? I'd love to hear real world runout differences
*spends the rest of the day reading reviews*

 

[ihavenofish]

teknos are air cooled with a fan. cab be a bit loud.

 

[ihavenofish]

though this pic was amusing. the machine i was recommending is built like the silver one, but with a smaller footprint. the tiny one is cool too, and cheap, but would severely limit any uses other than inlays.

 

[pshupe]

very nice. What are the sizes of those machines? Ideally I think I would like a relatively thin one - like 16", just enough for bodies, but short enough to be really rigid. Then about 30" long. I have a 25"x25" and I find it a bit short, although the 16" would really make it only for guitar stuff. Do those smaller spindles like 800w (1 hp) have the higher rpm that would be adviseable for the tiny tiny bits? Apparently the "fret cutter" bits, 0.023", from precise bits are recommended to cut at 40k rpm.

Thanks.

Regards Peter.

 

[bruce bennett]

its cheap cause its very low grade. there are many many machines better than that for similar or lower prices.

over 4000 machines sold to date..

and I've looked at a LOT of machines.. I'm not finding anything for the same or less pricing that has similar features.. So if you know something .. spill.

oh, and Anything that uses Mach3... not interested.

 

[BWGuitars]

oh, and Anything that uses Mach3... not interested.

As a CNC noob who's only used Mach3, what's wrong with it? Or are there just better options out there?

 

[bruce bennett]

it just personal for me,
I had a machine that Used Mach3
and as I understand it Mach3 has to "take over" control of the CPU from Windows.. and Windows can occasionally "assert itself" and cause glitches in Mach3
Most of the time this is minimal, and of no real consequence.


But, as I mentioned I had a Automatic Tool Change Machine that used Mach3
and during a tool change, a Windows "Glitch" happened... which cause the machine to toss an ER20 tool holder loaded with a 1/2" dia. 2" long spiral cutter bit into the gut of my operator.. Thankfully he was only winded and scratched up a bit.

( and the spindle and tool holder assembly required a 4K rebuild)

but still. I'm not willing to work with any tool that I can't trust its operation.

one of the things I really liked about the Probotix unit is that it comes with its own PC complete and loaded with Linux and EMC2 control software.

its not the most feature loaded control software to be sure.. but after looking into it further, i liked the fact that its much closer to a Closed system, similar to the Fanuc or OSI type control systems.
its designed to handle only one task at a time and that's all. which IMHO is exactly the way a CNC should work.

as opposed to running parallel to another system like Windows.

 

[BWGuitars]

it just personal for me,
I had a machine that Used Mach3
and as I understand it Mach3 has to "take over" control of the CPU from Windows.. and Windows can occasionally "assert itself" and cause glitches in Mach3
Most of the time this is minimal, and of no real consequence.


But, as I mentioned I had a Automatic Tool Change Machine that used Mach3
and during a tool change, a Windows "Glitch" happened... which cause the machine to toss an ER20 tool holder loaded with a 1/2" dia. 2" long spiral cutter bit into the gut of my operator.. Thankfully he was only winded and scratched up a bit.

( and the spindle and tool holder assembly required a 4K rebuild)

but still. I'm not willing to work with any tool that I can't trust its operation.

one of the things I really liked about the Probotix unit is that it comes with its own PC complete and loaded with Linux and EMC2 control software.

its not the most feature loaded control software to be sure.. but after looking into it further, i liked the fact that its much closer to a Closed system, similar to the Fanuc or OSI type control systems.
its designed to handle only one task at a time and that's all. which IMHO is exactly the way a CNC should work.

as opposed to running parallel to another system like Windows.

Ah gotcha. Definitely something to think about! Thanks!

 

[pshupe]

I too have not seen anything comparable in price to the fireball meteor. 25x50 for $4000?? I bought a CNC Shark Pro Plus HD 25x25 for $5000, without computer. It is also made of phenolic panels not aluminum.

The one thing I did really like about the Shark was the software. Vectric - Vcarve Pro, and Cut3d. This software is very user friendly and gives you very good examples of how the project will be carved in the form of a 3d render animation. It takes the worry out of making the Gcode. The software does have it's drawbacks but overall it's pretty decent. Same with the CNC itself.

Cheers Peter.

 

[ihavenofish]

very nice. What are the sizes of those machines? Ideally I think I would like a relatively thin one - like 16", just enough for bodies, but short enough to be really rigid. Then about 30" long. I have a 25"x25" and I find it a bit short, although the 16" would really make it only for guitar stuff. Do those smaller spindles like 800w (1 hp) have the higher rpm that would be adviseable for the tiny tiny bits? Apparently the "fret cutter" bits, 0.023", from precise bits are recommended to cut at 40k rpm.

Thanks.

Regards Peter.

the little one is 14x18 travel if i recall. the big one is 32x40.

mine (raptor) is 18x40, but you could get 18x28 (which is what i used to have).

the NEW raptor is possibly going to be 24x28 or 24x40.

cutters run on surface speed. say, 3000 feet per minute in wood. the smaller the cutter is, the faster the rpm "should" be. when the bits get really tiny (under 1/4" ) you are basically compromising. a 0.023" bit "should" go 500000rpm, but since that isnt possible, we use the fastest we can get our hands on. economical air turbine spindles run up to about 90k rpm. taylor uses these for inlays in their headstock overlays.

on a more versatile router though, you tend to end up with 24k, because its the best compromise for cutting with larger bits and smaller bits on the same machine.

 

[ihavenofish]

over 4000 machines sold to date..

and I've looked at a LOT of machines.. I'm not finding anything for the same or less pricing that has similar features.. So if you know something .. spill.

oh, and Anything that uses Mach3... not interested.

the viper xz round rail machine is 2750. motors drives, pc, etc come in well under 4k if you do it yourself. youll end up with a far nicer machine too. its slightly less travel though, at 23x40.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qznGZoUI89g[/ame]

on mach3, overall it very very very good. it does have a few quirks though that make it tricky to use in certain applications - like 3d carving. it can stall in high speed contour cutting. its 100% repeatable though, and audible, so if you run the program in the air ahead of time, you can ensure the safety of your work piece.

EMC does have more reliable contouring in that respect, BUT its super slow at it when the tolerance is set to something acceptable (.0005" usually for contouring).

have you used emc? emc's ui is AWEFUL and its not user friendly in the least. setup is annoying and poorly documented. it has no wizards for simple tasks, and no easy to use way to tune out backlash, squareness, etc.

im going to be using a Kflop controller on my new router which should arrive in a few weeks. its vastly superior in every way over the software only setups, but you need to code in C to set it up with your specific machine. the turnkey systems from xzero will likely use the kflop with a custom UI.