CITES Frustration (Solved)

Luboy

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Hello,
I'm new to the board and have a question regarding my CITES dilemma. I live in Europe, and am interested in getting a new historic LP. None of the deals in the EU are good compared to what you can find in the US. The problem is that most US sellers don't have CITES for their guitars, or are waiting on CITES certificates which never seem to arrive. It feels almost impossible to get a Gibson from the US here, which is beyond frustrating.

I would like to ask, is anyone here willing to have me ship an instrument to their address, which they can then ship to mine as a gift (guitar businesses cannot mark as gift apparently). Of course I'll pay for shipping and other hassles.

EDIT: My request is based on 'New CITES Regulations and Your Gibson Guitar' from the official Gibson website. Apparently I must have misunderstood something. My intention is not to cheat anyone, and I have no desire to go through with this idea any longer. I did not mean to offend anyone.
 

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PierM

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Great start for a new user; asking people to break the law doesnt sound a great idea. :facepalm:

Not trying to be a smartass, but that is really illegal and you’d put both you and the other guy in a possible bad trouble. Gift ot not, you have to declare the content and the risk for a Custom inspection its there (I’ve got 2 in a couple of years). Not only a CITES fraud for you, but also tax fraud for both the parties...

Good luck.
 

Luboy

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Thanks for the reply. The way I see this is that the risk is on me. From what I have read in articles, it states that sending as 'gift' removes the necessity for a CITES cert (perhaps that information is wrong). I don't see where the tax fraud comes, unless shipping with CITES brings on extra taxes that I haven't heard about honestly. Apologies for giving off the wrong impression.
 

Subterfuge

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I'm in a country other than USA so I just bought my TH in a regular store, let the importer worry about the overkill nonsense paperwork
 

Luboy

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Thanks for the info. I got that information on the official Gibson website itself, but I must have misunderstood it.
 

lpthomas

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Woulnd't this be some kind of tax fraud anyway?

Seems bonkers to me to go through all this hassle when you could probably wait a few months, save and buy in the EU.

Care to share the model you're interested in, the particular deal?
 

Luboy

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I'm in a country other than USA so I just bought my TH in a regular store, let the importer worry about the overkill nonsense paperwork
Which store did you purchase from? I haven't been able to find any good tops for good prices in the EU. I see amazing deals where can literally save 1000 euro or more on 2018 historics in the US, so that is my main problem.
 

Subterfuge

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what if the guy you decide to ship the guitar to decides to keep it ?? you can't go to the Police because you'd have to explain your plot to thwart existing Citie/Tax Laws, thereby implicating yourself in a criminal offence
 

Luboy

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what if the guy you decide to ship the guitar to decides to keep it ?? you can't go to the Police because you'd have to explain your plot to thwart existing Citie/Tax Laws, thereby implicating yourself in a criminal offence
I understand that risk. But I also understand that there are well regarded members here. I apologize if this looks like a crime plot of some sort, that was not my intention at all. Just a frustration that I am missing out on crazy deals. I would rather wait until someone sells with CITES than buy from Europe, getting a Gibson here is often a ripoff in my opinion.
 

PierM

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Thanks for the reply. The way I see this is that the risk is on me. From what I have read in articles, it states that sending as 'gift' removes the necessity for a CITES cert (perhaps that information is wrong). I don't see where the tax fraud comes, unless shipping with CITES brings on extra taxes that I haven't heard about honestly. Apologies for giving off the wrong impression.
Nope. You have to always declare the content. If you declare a false information to avoid CITES and Taxes, that is a fraud. If you then want to pay taxes, then you need to correctly declare the content, and here we go again with CITES.

I had my guitars coming from the USA, inspected, twice. This means that they hold the box, open it, and inspect the content. At that point they will check if content match what the exporter declared in the shipping invoice. Now, at their call, they could contact you (the importer), and ask to declare the content again and/or to produce documentation. Now you are both in trouble (CITES and TAX/Fees fraud for you, and TAX fraud for the guy who shipped to you).

Believe me, do not mess with these things. It's not that you are importing a 20$ toy.

CITES are a pain, I agree.
 

Luboy

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Nope. You have to always declare the content. If you declare a false information to avoid CITES and Taxes, that is a fraud. If you then want to pay taxes, then you need to correctly declare the content, and here we go again with CITES.

I had my guitars coming from the USA, inspected, twice. This means that they hold the box, open it, and inspect the content. At that point they will check if content match what the importer declared. Now, at their call, they could contact you (the importer), and ask to declare the content again and/or to produce documentation. Now you are both in trouble (CITES and TAX/Fees fraud for you, and TAX fraud for the guy who shipped to you).

Believe me, do not mess with these things. It's not that you are importing a 20$ toy.

CITES are a pain, I agree.
Thanks PierM, I understand. It is indeed frustrating. The Gibson Article 'New CITES Regulations and Your Gibson Guitar' stated that gifts are exempt from CITES, but maybe that was just referring to domestic shipping in the US. I won't bother taking this risk, will just wait for a good legal opportunity.
 

Tim Plains

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I would do it for you but don't think it would work. My understanding of CITES is musical instruments are except only when you cross the border with them, that's what makes it your personal instrument, but a guy like me shipping it to the EU is no different than a store shipping it. Same paperwork would be required.
 
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dsmcl77

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Hi Luboy,

I Don't know were You're from n Europe. I am from France, And if I would buy a guitar priced between 4000 and 5000 USD, I would pay 4% custom duties and 20% VAT so the 1000€ I'd save would be given anyway to our dear politician to spend at will…

+ you don't get the chance to try the guitar. It's not all about flame and burst… a looker can be a lemon.. or a dog. (makes me think that rule doesn't apply only to guitar… :hmm:).
What if you don't like it when received?

Too much trouble for very little gain at the end.
Keep watching, there can be good deal in Europe too.
 

Luboy

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I would do it for you but don't Think it would work. My understanding of CITES is musical instruments are except only when you cross the border with them, that's what makes it your personal instrument, but a guy like me shipping it to the EU is no different than a store shipping it. Same paperwork would be required.
Yeah makes sense, thanks for the offer though. I've read a bunch more articles, and there's some contradiction on the info. Better not to take any risks.
 

Subterfuge

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yeah I agree with you that European Gibson prices (at least in Germany) are unrealistically obscene ... they charge prices as if the guitar was constructed of 24k gold
 

Luboy

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Hi Luboy,

I Don't know were You're from n Europe. I am from France, And if I would buy a guitar priced between 4000 and 5000 USD, I would pay 4% custom duties and 20% VAT so the 1000€ I'd save would be given anyway to our dear politician to spend at will…

+ you don't get the chance to try the guitar. It's not all about flame and burst… a looker can be a lemon.. or a dog. (makes me think that rule doesn't apply only to guitar… :hmm:).
What if you don't like it when received?

Too much trouble for very little gain at the end.
Keep watching, there can be good deal in Europe too.
I understand that, but some sellers do a decent description of the instrument. I've owned a historic before, and have tried some, usually satisfied with most tonal varieties. Mostly aiming at a decent top and weight at the moment. I have shipped a historic in early 2017 (didn't even know about CITES then), and with all taxes involved I still saved over 700 euro, so that's still a much better deal than what EU offers. There are far more 'used but as new' offers in the US too, so even more cash saved. I'll just wait for a good, legal deal.
 

Subterfuge

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it's do-able but it's risky, everyone ships stuff and declares it as a gift. Problem is it's a $5,000 gift and if some over-zealous customers person open it and decides to do a detailed investigation facts will probably come out that you two don't really know each other ... it's not a gift after all .... and then everyone is in trouble ... not worth it in my opinion
 

Luboy

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it's do-able but it's risky, everyone ships stuff and declares it as a gift. Problem is it's a $5,000 gift and if some over-zealous customers person open it and decides to do a detailed investigation facts will probably come out that you two don't really know each other ... it's not a gift after all .... and then everyone is in trouble ... not worth it in my opinion
I agree. As for the price, I'm aiming for something around 3.5k to 4k USD. You really can't find LPs in excellent condition for those prices in the EU, especially ones made in 2013 and after.
 

lespaulfreak93

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You're paying more because the dealer and importer had to deal with exactly this when they had the guitars shipped to Europe. Don't forget that even if the buying price is cheaper, you are still going to have to pay a lot of taxes - your country's normal tax on musical instruments, a toll/tax for import (which is around 3% in the EU IIRC) and miss out on being able to return/get it serviced. In the end the super deal looks great at first, but taking that into consideration it's not that great. Dunno where you're from in the EU, but here that amounts to having to add around ~30% of the amount paid for taxes, and don't forget the "Full price" which you pay taxes for includes the price you paid for shipping, which is expensive, and usually around 200$ to the EU.


If you can afford such a high-end instrument, you can afford to pay the dealer/importer.
I live in the shit part of the EU. Used Gibsons cost more than new ones in the US here. Have to deal with it.

Also, keep browsing Reverb, with the "located in EU" option on always.

Oh, and welcome to the forum, best on the internet. Glad you're upfront about not wanting to be part of it, just interested in possibly using one of us to cheat international laws. Especially with your 1 post. I'm pretty sure that will work out well.
 
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