CITES Eases Rosewood Restrictions...a bit

JohnInNJ

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misterhatter6

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So wait. Say I were to find a Harley Benton I wanted to order, but it had rosewood in it. If I had a trustworthy friend in Germany, could that person order the guitar for me, and then send it to me here in the States, under the guise of having it repaired? Or am I over-simplifying this?
 

JohnInNJ

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So wait. Say I were to find a Harley Benton I wanted to order, but it had rosewood in it. If I had a trustworthy friend in Germany, could that person order the guitar for me, and then send it to me here in the States, under the guise of having it repaired? Or am I over-simplifying this?
Who knows? As the article points out, each country can enforce CITES any way they wish. You'd probably have to still deal with German authorities and US authorities. Presumably if they aren't asleep, you'd have to show you shipped the same instrument back to Germany. I guess. But without getting into politics, the current US administration does not seem too interested in any environmental laws and I haven't heard of anyone getting their guitar confiscated by customs, so...who knows?

I've tried to buy instruments from Ishibashi and Japanese authorities wouldn't do the CITES paperwork even though it's the IMPORTING country that is supposed to confiscate the goods if there is no CITES paperwork or incorrect paperwork. I never got to the point of the importing country.

All this BS because the Chinese imported up to 3.5 MILLION CUBIC METERS of rosewood for ostentatious furniture! http://time.com/4288287/china-thailand-rosewood-environment-logging/
 

Rocco Crocco

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From the article.... where did they get this figure?

"We reported that the regulations had burdened traveling orchestras and the musical instruments industry with a confusing and complex permit system that put musicians in fear of losing beloved instruments, which also resulted in the loss of tens of millions of dollars in guitar sales this year."
 

bluesriffdev

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From the article.... where did they get this figure?

"We reported that the regulations had burdened traveling orchestras and the musical instruments industry with a confusing and complex permit system that put musicians in fear of losing beloved instruments, which also resulted in the loss of tens of millions of dollars in guitar sales this year."
I feel like it's a figure that would be hard to quantify, but it sounds more than reasonable. There's a lot of musicians out there. It would only be affecting used instruments, though. Furthermore, why would traveling orchestras have troubles? Each person could bring up to 10kg of Rosewood (provided it isn't Brazilian, which is Schedule II iirc), products with them as they travel under the old regulations.

These adjustments don't really do much other than perhaps provide an alibi, as alluded to above. "Oh no no, I'm bringing it in for repairs, I swear!". I dislike the January, 2017 CITES regulations regarding Rosewood, but I understand why they're there. The regulations would be almost pointless if they weren't all-encompassing; if they allowed any finished rosewood product made before 2017, as has been suggested in many other threads, the Chinese furniture manufacturers that illegally log (which were the main reason behind the new regulations) would just serial their items to a date before 2017.
 

Roxy13

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I read that some countries were going so far as to not let musicians "show off" their rosewood instruments by playing them on stage (Germany maybe?). So sure, if that really happened anywhere I can musicians and orchestras being afraid to travel.
 

paruwi

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you still can buy guitars with 'Rosewood', and you still can travel the whole world with them - all you need to do is getting your 'paperwork' before.
That paperwork cost some $$$, that's why for example thomann don't ship guitars cheaper than 1000€ outside of the EU anymore.
That's why many Japanese sellers don't sell anymore outside their country.
Some do the paperwork and sell without any issue.
The paperwork clarifies the posession before the date 01-01-2017
Or the manufacturer / importer needs to prove the existense before that date.
For new guitars each part of the chain needs to record the used parts, from the sawmill to the completed guitar.

The new CITES-II regulation is law in all countries, that signed it, some handle it harder than others....

Personally I won't risk some 100 or 1000€ not being sure the item is held or destroyed at the customs-bureau

More informations here

http://www.mylespaul.com/threads/new-cites-regulations.382374/
 
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roses

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I've imported several rosewood board guitars into the UK since the cites came in place (most recent jus last week) with no certificates and there's been no issues from customs. I really get the feeling UK customs aren't interested at all in the cites at least not as far as guitars are concerned anyway. The only issues I'm finding is most japanese sites and proxies not wanting to export rosewood guitars. I used zenmarket for the most recent purchase.
 

bluesriffdev

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I read that some countries were going so far as to not let musicians "show off" their rosewood instruments by playing them on stage (Germany maybe?). So sure, if that really happened anywhere I can musicians and orchestras being afraid to travel.
This makes me skeptical. There's no mention of ownership or display, it's just about the import and export of rosewood and rosewood products. Unless these orchestras are intending on playing some shows in Pyongyang or Havana, I doubt they'd be restricted in using or displaying their property how they wish, and even then it wouldn't have anything to do with CITES. The law of property is still paramount.

I feel whoever or whatever site has told you this has been telling you porkies. That said, I don't doubt that there might be some reason travelling orchestras don't feel comfortable with the new regulations; I'm not a travelling orchestra, what would I know? I can understand how they'd be uncomfortable if they were bulk-shipping all the instruments with them, but like I said above, individual players could bring the instrument or instruments with them as checked luggage, provided the rosewood-carrying instrument doesn't weigh over 10kg. It's still an issue though, I concede, because having the players bring the instruments in does inevitably raise cost and increase the risk of damage.
 

JohnInNJ

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you had some luck :thumb:
Out of curiosity, do you know anyone who has had an imported Indian rosewood-containing guitar that has been confiscated? Just wondering.

The biggest impact I've noticed from CITES regulations is that the price of foreign guitars has gone up quite a bit while the number of upscale models available has decreased. I have to wonder if in the future CITES rules are loosened up on already constructed instruments, will prices drop? Would it be better to wait a year or 2 to see what happens?

And why the hell wasn't China ALONE slapped with restrictions!?
 

bluesriffdev

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Out of curiosity, do you know anyone who has had an imported Indian rosewood-containing guitar that has been confiscated? Just wondering.

The biggest impact I've noticed from CITES regulations is that the price of foreign guitars has gone up quite a bit while the number of upscale models available has decreased. I have to wonder if in the future CITES rules are loosened up on already constructed instruments, will prices drop? Would it be better to wait a year or 2 to see what happens?

And why the hell wasn't China ALONE slapped with restrictions!?
Well, I mean, illegal logging is a problem no matter what part of the globe you're on. Yes, China tends to be the main culprits of making furniture with illegally logged wood, but from a law-making sense, why would you punish China alone, when any other person in any other country could do it as well? Although CITES is not a country, in a democracy, laws should apply to everyone (per magna carta IIRC). Plus, I'd imagine China would have a bit of a whinge if it applied just to them.

It sucks that Chinese furniture makers are, in effect, the main reason that that the rules were formed to begin with, but at the end of the day there should be more barriers to illegal logging as possible. Red tape sucks but trees are pretty good, too. China can start farming Rosewood themselves or pay up for legally harvested RW.
 

Roxy13

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I'm trying to find the articles I read about this, but it was over a year ago. Here is one mentioning seizures of instruments from traveling musicians in both the US and Germany, although it was over ivory in violin bows. There was another specifically referring to rosewood on a fretboard, but I'm still looking.

http://www.musicinstrumentnews.co.uk/2016/12/02/guitar-businesses-threatened-cites-rules-questions-namm-2017/

I'll update if I find others I read.

This is not the one I'm trying to find either but it sure scared me off importing a guitar from Japan or traveling with one.

https://ibma.org/press/archives/you-cant-take-my-guitar-what-every-traveling-musician-should-know-about-cites

Still not the one I remember, but talks about a vintage guitar show in Germany that had to be cancelled:

http://www.bnbguitars.com/EN/news/vintage-guitar-show-germany-canceled-due-cites-regulation/index.cfm

I can't find the specific one I read, which is likely buried on a far back page of my google search at this point, and my brain is tired :(
 
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bluesriffdev

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I'm trying to find the articles I read about this, but it was over a year ago. Here is one mentioning seizures of instruments from traveling musicians in both the US and Germany, although it was over ivory in violin bows. There was another specifically referring to rosewood on a fretboard, but I'm still looking.

http://www.musicinstrumentnews.co.uk/2016/12/02/guitar-businesses-threatened-cites-rules-questions-namm-2017/

I'll update if I find others I read.

This is not the one I'm trying to find either but it sure scared me off importing a guitar from Japan or traveling with one.

https://ibma.org/press/archives/you-cant-take-my-guitar-what-every-traveling-musician-should-know-about-cites

Still not the one I remember, but talks about a vintage guitar show in Germany that had to be cancelled:

http://www.bnbguitars.com/EN/news/vintage-guitar-show-germany-canceled-due-cites-regulation/index.cfm

I can't find the specific one I read, which is likely buried on a far back page of my google search at this point, and my brain is tired :(
I wouldn't bother trying to find it haha. I believe you, I just don't necessarily believe the premise of banning stage use and display of rosewood instruments itself. The article from IBMA is from before the January 2017 regulations came into force; Brazilian Rosewood will always require a certificate to be carried with you and it's been like that since 1992.

The second article specifically refers to Brazilian Rosewood as well. Just to be clear, I'm talking about non-brazilian rosewood. Brazilian rosewood has been Appendix I since 1992, carrying the same severity as ivory importation. The new regulations are in regards to standard Rosewood, which is Appendix II, and less restrictions apply to them. Brazilian will always be a bitch to import.

With the January 2017 regulations, you could bring in up to 10kg of Rosewood products with you as an individual travelling with them, without the need for a certificate. This is now irrelevant because you can supposedly bring any non-brazilian rosewood instrument with you now, regardless of combined weight, at least as alleged by the article in OP's post.
 

dgrey

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I have three PRS guitars, and all three have Brazilian necks. Essentially, they can now never leave the US :(
 


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