Cap value more important than cap materials? An experiment.

[freefrog]

So, I’ve mounted two sets of PAF clones in the same LP, with the same pots (in 50’s wiring mode) but with different tone caps.

Here are their specs:


PAF clones 1 = 7.8k & 4.2H, 7,1k & 3,6H. Alnico 2 mag, PE wire.
Tone caps: modern Orange Drops, 22n.


PAF clones 2 = 8k & 4.5H, 7.3k & 4H. Alnico 2 mag, PE wire.
Tone caps: vintage PIO, 33n.


Several samples have been recorded with each set, the guitar being plugged direct to the board through a “direct box”.

Each sample has been passed though a frequency analyzer set on “infinite” (“inf”) in order to stack the frequencies produced.




The first screenshot below shows the frequencies produced by the bridge and neck PU’s with their vol and tone full up, when all the strings are brushed together from unfretted position to the 12th fret.



PAF Clones 1 are plotted in red, PAF clones 2 are shown by the blue lines.
Not much differences for the moment, as expected from pickups with so similar specs…



To be continued in the next post.

 

[freefrog]

Now, let's post the frequencies produced by the PU's with their tone pot totally lowered.

These frequencies are shown in blue while the red line still shows the response of each pickup full up.

In each case, the pickup number "1" is the one mounted with an Orange Drop cap.

The number "2" is the one mounted with a PIO.

To be continued.

 

[freefrog]

Now, let's stack the frequencies produced by the two kinds of PU's with their respective tone pots on zero.

This time, the blue line shows the response due to PIO and the red line shows the spectrum due to Orange Drops.

 

[freefrog]

The PAF clones mounted with Orange Drops caps have a lower resistance and inductance. Their tone caps have a lower value of 22n.

So, logically, the pickups mounted with PIO should sound DARKER with their tone pots on zero...

What do you think?


Footnotes:

-This topic translates only ONE of my experiments with tone caps: only 4 caps are involved. I'm not generalizing the results by any mean.

-Nevertheless, this topic is meant to explain why I keep thinking that cap materials matters in the tone produced when the tone pots are lowered.

-Last but not not least: I had this topic in my archives for a long time. I post it only to share and not to argue, nor to be right, nor to prove something and so on (having been severely injured in an accident some months ago, I've not enough energy not enough time to fall in petty argument about tone caps). I'm just posting honestly what I've actually noticed.

...and the vintage PIO caps will stay in the mentioned LP.

Hope to be useful...

 

[mechtech]

For this to have significance, we have to measure the cap values exactly.
And not only the initial static reading, but what is the net through the pots at various settings.
Why? Capacitance is capacitance.

 

[Jason Taylor]

Shouldnt an accurate test be using the same value cap for everything?

 

[freefrog]

For this to have significance, we have to measure the cap values exactly.
And not only the initial static reading, but what is the net through the pots at various settings.
Why? Capacitance is capacitance.

The value of the caps has of course been actually measured and is within the range mentioned: 22n Orange Drops and 33n PIO, +/- a few %.

Capacitance is capacitance but various materials translate in different factors of dielectric absorption ("K").

Now, if someone has an explanation about the Q factor which becomes obviously lower with the PIO, I'm all ears.

Shouldnt an accurate test be using the same value cap for everything?

I've already posted several other tests in the past, implying caps of strictly the same value (and in which differences could clearly be seen too).

This time, my goal was just to illustrate my "real life experience" with PIO caps: why the heck do my Les Pauls sound more "open" with vintage PIO 33n caps than with modern 22n things, while it should be the contrary?

In this case, I respectfully don't care if the comparison is "accurate" or not. I'm just sharing what I've noticed and the related perplexity.

Once again, if someone has a clear explanation to offer, I'll be grateful.

 

[Jason Taylor]

Oh ok well why didn't you say so in the first place lol! Yeah I think the switch from ceramics to pio was nice for me. Made my bridge a little warmer too. Weird. I like.

 

[mechtech]

My personal opinion then...
I can't hear a difference with the same value caps.
My brother is an electrical engineer, and says there should be no difference.
Bill Lawrence [ the pickup designer and engineer] says it doesn't matter which types is used. And even more, whether it is in the cap or cable - it nets the same.

 

[freefrog]

My personal opinion then...
I can't hear a difference with the same value caps.
My brother is an electrical engineer, and says there should be no difference.
Bill Lawrence [ the pickup designer and engineer] says it doesn't matter which types is used. And even more, whether it is in the cap or cable - it nets the same.

I always respect different opinions because I respect people.

That said, I've precised in my first post that I don't want to argue about it because this topic is not about opinions but about a fact:

my vintage PIO caps don't sound the same than other caps and don't react "logically".

EACH test done with these things brings "different results" and I'm still waiting a clear explanation about this difference.

FWIW: my brother is also engineer in electronics (as is his wife, BTW). He also thinks that caps of the same value should sound the same... and he notices like me that it's not the case with my PIO's.

Regarding Bill Lawrence, I've the uttermost respect for him and I'm friend with another pickup winder who knows him personally for a long time, since he was the first to import BL pickups in my country at the end of the 70's...

But AFAIK, William Stitch (a.k.a Bill Lawrence) is a man like us: he has opinions and hasn't a patent on God's omniscience.

Peacefully and respectfully, from someone who is still waiting an explanation about the objective data translated above.

 

[Jason Taylor]

my vintage PIO caps don't sound the same than other caps and don't react "logically".

EACH test done with these things brings "different results" and I'm still waiting a clear explanation about this difference.

FWIW: my brother is also engineer in electronics (as is his wife, BTW). He also thinks that caps of the same value should sound the same... and he notices like me that it's not the case with my PIO's.

Peacefully and respectfully, from someone who is still waiting an explanation about the objective data translated above.

Maybe drift of the caps has made a difference?

If the .033 is near .027, or if the .022 PIO is near .026 from drift...

That would make them nearly identical values.

Or the different values of the 2 PAF humbucker clones influences the readings, even if using the same cap for each test?

Also just thought of this: what if every time you plucked all 6 strings at the 12th fret you accidently used different force and THAT influenced the graphs at least?

And lastly, the greater response with tone on zero occurs with the PAF clone that has a HIGHER output!!!

Just throwing thoughts out there maybe something will stick

 

[freefrog]

Maybe drift of the caps has made a difference?

If the .033 is near .027, or if the .022 PIO is near .026 from drift...

That would make them nearly identical values.

Or the different values of the 2 PAF humbucker clones influences the readings, even if using the same cap for each test?

Also just thought of this: what if every time you plucked all 6 strings at the 12th fret you accidently used different force and THAT influenced the graphs at least?

And lastly, the greater response with tone on zero occurs with the PAF clone that has a HIGHER output!!!

Just throwing thoughts out there maybe something will stick

Thxs for the answer.

The value of the caps has not drifted: they have actually been measured at 22n and 33n, +/- a few decimals.

The two sets of PAF clones have practically the same output. Actually, the one fitted with Orange Drops is a wee bit louder with all pots full up, as shown in the two first graphs. So, the other set shouldn't sound louder with the tone pots @ 0/10.

And of course, I've carefully plucked the strings with the same strenght across the fretboard (with the same strings, pick, fingers, guitar, cable, settings).

But I'll post ASAP some other tests in which picking strenght is not involved...

 

[Jason Taylor]

Thxs for the answer.

Read your reply. Hmm... Im just guessing for everything to try to help as I dont know. Maye do same test and change caps for the pickups and see if results remain the same.

Also maybe its also fair to say that heck yes PIO make a difference because of the materials over polypropylene plastic of an Orange Drop.

Perhaps an Orange Drop is just BETTER at rolling off the high frequencies over PIO.... therefore sounding DARKER over a PIO!!!

Maybe the Orange Drop needs a "treble bypass cap" on the volume pot in addition

 

[freefrog]

Read your reply. Hmm... Im just guessing for everything to try to help as I dont know. Maye do same test and change caps for the pickups and see if results remain the same.

Thx for your help. It's all good.

Actually, I had tried the same PIO caps with other PU's several years ago and had noticed exactly the same thing. Sadly, I've no more these previous PU's nor the related data (I've lost a lot of archived files in a dead hard disk then because of an Internet virus).

Perhaps an Orange Drop is just BETTER at rolling off the high frequencies over PIO.... therefore sounding DARKER over a PIO!!!

That's what I notice and try to understand... the "Q factor" of these PIO's appears to be lower than the one of Orange Drops and other caps and I've not yet found nor heard a convincing explanation about this difference. Hence this topic, just to share my finding... and my perplexity.

To be continued, if time permits.

 

[Jason Taylor]

That's what I notice and try to understand... the "Q factor" of these PIO's appears to be lower than the one of Orange Drops and other caps and I've not yet found nor heard a convincing explanation about this difference. Hence this topic, just to share my finding...

I have zero schooling in this, but I have tried to help. I believe your answer is in here somewhere as it mentions different dielectric materials affecting DF and so check it out:

Dissipation factor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And maybe the Q Factor is lower because of dissipation plus dilectric materials. Plus I wonder what the *oil* has to do with the results vs passing thru more solid/dry environment of an Orange Drop?

Now I wanna know the answer too LOL!!!

 

[Mookakian]

Wholey bajeezers thats a confusing graph system/set up

Hurt my head so I'll try make sense tomorrow

 

[yeti]

But AFAIK, William Stitch (a.k.a Bill Lawrence)......

I thought his name was Billy Lorento.

 

[freefrog]

I thought his name was Billy Lorento.

Pseudonym that he used as a jazzman, if my memory serves me. BTW, I might have mispelled his real name: Stich and not "stitch" (I guess it's due to the inches of stitches that I have across the face since my accident 3 months ago ).

I have zero schooling in this, but I have tried to help. I believe your answer is in here somewhere as it mentions different dielectric materials affecting DF and so check it out:

Dissipation factor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And maybe the Q Factor is lower because of dissipation plus dilectric materials. Plus I wonder what the *oil* has to do with the results vs passing thru more solid/dry environment of an Orange Drop?

Now I wanna know the answer too LOL!!!

Thx for the link. It gives another "angle" of reflection than the simple question of K factor (dielectric constant) to "theorize" what I've noticed.

Hurt my head so I'll try make sense tomorrow

Hurts mine too...

...but it translates a really simple tonal difference, finally. I guess I just love graphs.

 

[MATTM]

IMHO, a better test would have been caps of the same value. However, that being said (and again my opinion), data and what people actually hear are 2 entirely different things.

 

[freefrog]

IMHO, a better test would have been caps of the same value. However, that being said (and again my opinion), data and what people actually hear are 2 entirely different things.

Respectfully and peacefully, I'll express another POV:

-the difference appears to me as surprising precisely because caps of lower value sound darker than their higher capacitance counterparts.

-Being based on frequency analysis, the screenshots above translate faithfully what I hear: a more open tone with the higher capacitance while it should be the contrary...

This paradox is the reason why I've created this topic.

I've still many other screenshots collected during 10 years in such experiments but I wanted to compare these pictures for the reasons explained above.