Calling out Detlef @ Guitarpoint in Frankfurt am Main

rockstar232007

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I have heard similar stories, and frankly I’m not surprised as there really is no correlation between ‘status’ and ‘honesty’ in this business, as recent dealings with Chicago Music Exchange have proven yet again.
What galls me the most is while one can make a mistake (although as self proclaimed ‘experts’ this stuff shouldn’t even get into the stock list, let alone be sold!), it’s obvious sellers are completely aware of all issues, but just don’t give a shit, and have zero intention to amend descriptions or any genuine remorse.

What was the outcome on the refin ‘58 Goldtop deal? I would post this on the LPF and TGP too.
I agree.

One of the things that shocked me about CME is, that they have a "dirty" (modified) '61 SG/LP listed for $12K. Which is about the going rate for a completely stock one.

I've personally dealt with those guys, and thankfully knew my shit, but to see that kind of stuff from a company with their reputation, kind of pisses me off.
 
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d1m1

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very sorry to hear that greg.. i never liked that shop and that guy. the prices are to high for the sh!t they re selling. the only experience i had with them is to ask for a better price. all i got was a rude answere..

if he wrote authentication & cites papers about the 58 "burst" then SUE him!!! the problem wont be to proof that it has been refinished etc. the problem would be to proof that he sold it as original. good luck!
 

Jumping@shadows

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I agree.

One of the things that shocked me about CME is, that they have a "dirty" (modified) '61 SG/LP listed for $12K. Which is about the going rate for a completely stock one.

I've personally dealt with those guys, and thankfully new my shit, but to see that kind of stuff from a company with their reputation, kind of pisses me off.
I wonder how many high end bad deals they have done which we don’t know about? I know the last owner of CME was widely considered a crook, but Andrew Yonkee is no different, and I can unreservedly state that as I have reams of comms back and forth illustrating the fact.
I just checked their site for ‘61 SG’s and they have one to at $15,999 OBO as fully stock save ‘touched up solder on the covers’, except the covers are chrome- oops! Is this ignorance or contempt for the buying public, and which is worse I wonder?
 

JuicyLucy_69

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I am not shure how to interpret bad sayings or even insults about some people or specially dealers in the business in public forums as I notice that it always come from the same people. if you look closer behind the scenes you ´ll notice that those who shout loudest are normally those who actually never dealed or even spoke with the dealer they are accusing to spoil or fraud people. In this case Razzle Dazzle s thread makes the strong impression it was written in a very emotional mood not beeing very factual at all. Detlef is known for beeing very accurate with his instrument descriptions as any instrument is closely inspected, documented and photographed and the documentation is handed out to the customer. If a customer reports an issue or have a problem Detlef takes back the instrument and pays the money back without any discussion. I bought a lot of Vintage guitars from him in the past Years and people like Joe Bonamassa, Mathias Jabs, JD Simo a.o. too so this should say enough about Detlefs reputation in the Vintage Market.
 

Jumping@shadows

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I am not shure how to interpret bad sayings or even insults about some people or specially dealers in the business in public forums as I notice that it always come from the same people. if you look closer behind the scenes you ´ll notice that those who shout loudest are normally those who actually never dealed or even spoke with the dealer they are accusing to spoil or fraud people. In this case Razzle Dazzle s thread makes the strong impression it was written in a very emotional mood not beeing very factual at all. Detlef is known for beeing very accurate with his instrument descriptions as any instrument is closely inspected, documented and photographed and the documentation is handed out to the customer. If a customer reports an issue or have a problem Detlef takes back the instrument and pays the money back without any discussion. I bought a lot of Vintage guitars from him in the past Years and people like Joe Bonamassa, Mathias Jabs, JD Simo a.o. too so this should say enough about Detlefs reputation in the Vintage Market.
Best thing to do then is for the OP to publish the findings here for everybody to see then we can make our own judgement.
 

d1m1

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I am not shure how to interpret bad sayings or even insults about some people or specially dealers in the business in public forums as I notice that it always come from the same people. if you look closer behind the scenes you ´ll notice that those who shout loudest are normally those who actually never dealed or even spoke with the dealer they are accusing to spoil or fraud people. In this case Razzle Dazzle s thread makes the strong impression it was written in a very emotional mood not beeing very factual at all. Detlef is known for beeing very accurate with his instrument descriptions as any instrument is closely inspected, documented and photographed and the documentation is handed out to the customer. If a customer reports an issue or have a problem Detlef takes back the instrument and pays the money back without any discussion. I bought a lot of Vintage guitars from him in the past Years and people like Joe Bonamassa, Mathias Jabs, JD Simo a.o. too so this should say enough about Detlefs reputation in the Vintage Market.

Well if i have bought a 58 burst which turned out to be a goldtop refin with repro parts and a 64 marshall bluesbreaker which turned out to be a replica, i would be also in a very emotional mood. we are talking here about a los of ca. 150.000€!!!

also if detlef is known for beeing very accurate with his instrument descriptions as any instrument is closely inspected, then there only two possibilities. 1. he knew that the "burst" is a gt refin and the marshall a replica and sold them as original, 2. he has no idea what he is doing and sells crap to his customers.

the fact that you registred a new account to support detlef is to me a little suspicious. but if you re really a just customer then i would double check the "vintage" guitars i bought from guitarpoint..

last but not least, no i wouldnt give back the instrument to take the money back. i would sue him to get my mone back! because this is what he deserves. that would be justice. somebody has to stop it.
 

JuicyLucy_69

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There must be a reason you registred a new acoount for your posting

The same here @JuicyLucy_69
Yes Sharky there is a simple reason I registred & posted here because I stumbeled by hazard over Razzle Dazzels post while searching a guitar from Guitarpoint in the www. As I know the shop and it´s owner I thought I´ d shed some light from another view in this discussion. Did you ever bought an instrument from guitarpoint?
 

JuicyLucy_69

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Well if i have bought a 58 burst which turned out to be a goldtop refin with repro parts and a 64 marshall bluesbreaker which turned out to be a replica, i would be also in a very emotional mood. we are talking here about a los of ca. 150.000€!!!.
Hmm just wondering how you know how much Razzle Dazzle have paid for the refin 58 LP? Or are the 150 K just your personal estimate?
Thanks for your advice to doublecheck my GP Vintage Instruments but I do trust in Detlefs knowledge.
Furthermore I have a little trouble to understand why you super experienced expert guys would buy a high dollar Vintage Instrument without checking it deeply before or at least getting a 3rd party expert to assist the purchase which Detlef also clearly supports after what I know...
Finally it would be interesting if Razzle Dazzle would share some pics of the "Gold" Burst so anybody could judge for tehmselves..
 

Razzle Dazzle

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Y'all are off on the pricing by a long shot, like not even close. The '58 was owned by a German rockstar, the fact that it was a Goldtop and not a Burst did not make a real difference in value since he played it as a "burst" from the early 70's to early 80's. I'm not gonna disclose the price but I did not get ripped of on the pricing of the guitar in any way even tho it is a refinished Goldtop, and neither did the new owner but more on that at a later point. I did get straight lied to about the parts on it and the pickguard he gave me. It's only the fact that it was a Goldtop and not a Burst and he documented it as a Burst, sold it as a Burst and stays by the fact that it is a '58 burst even tho there is a lot of evidence against it. It just shows how much he truly knows about his stuff...

BTW I do understand the point y'all make but I considered Detlef a friend not a vintage guitar dealer, even Eric E. thought one could trust that guy, so try to see it from that perspective....
 

scmavl

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I wonder how many high end bad deals they have done which we don’t know about? I know the last owner of CME was widely considered a crook, but Andrew Yonkee is no different, and I can unreservedly state that as I have reams of comms back and forth illustrating the fact.
I just checked their site for ‘61 SG’s and they have one to at $15,999 OBO as fully stock save ‘touched up solder on the covers’, except the covers are chrome- oops! Is this ignorance or contempt for the buying public, and which is worse I wonder?
I recently returned a '53 ES-295 to CME as it had undisclosed changed parts. I had to pay for my own shipping back and as soon as they received it, it was back for sale on the website with the same description. But hey, at least I got one of those blowout 335s for a song. ;)
 

Jumping@shadows

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@Razzle Dazzle that adds some context I think- it’s different to sell a ‘58 Goldtop that was refinished as a Burst 40 odd years ago, and recognised and well documented as a ‘Burst’ ever since than a recent refin, but if one is able to call a presumably very authentic 40 year old refin as such, then a refin from gold would be as easy.
I wonder if Detlef figured ‘meh, it’s a refin anyway, and I’m not charging Burst money for it, so what do some wrong parts matter?’..
I bet there was gold paint remaining in the tenon smile, and in the wiring channel..
 

Jumping@shadows

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I wondered if it was that one- it’s a terrific refin if so, and if documented as a Burst since the early ‘70s I could appreciate how one wouldn’t assume it wasn’t exactly as described, but basic investigation should reveal the truth imo.
 

yeti

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I'm really getting confused now. A gang of three or so court recognized "experts" who wouldn't testify against each other? How does one proof fraud? I don't think that one has to proof fraud, the burden of proof lies on the investigating authorities (Staatsanwaltschaft), not the guy who reports the fraud, IIRC As such I'd speculate they'd follow any legit lead, including testimony from outside experts.
Regarding refin. A '58 Les Paul Standard that left Kalamazoo as a Burst and then gets refinished in Sunburst is a restoration while a GT refinished to Sunburst is a conversion, at least that's the way it seems to me. I'd expect a very different pricepoint, as idiotic as that may seem because at the time they were stripped of their original finish the differences between them were defacto eliminated, assuming they are both center seam tops. What am I missing?
 

d1m1

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I recently returned a '53 ES-295 to CME as it had undisclosed changed parts. I had to pay for my own shipping back and as soon as they received it, it was back for sale on the website with the same description. But hey, at least I got one of those blowout 335s for a song. ;)
now that could be kinda like an evidence that detlef obviously knows about the non originality of his stuff but still sells it as original..
 

LeftyF2003

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Sad to hear. I'm sorry you got taken. I'd not buy a vintage anything without getting an expert opinion, but these guys are taking advantage of the fact that you don't have a lot of expert appraisers in your area, and pictures don't often give enough information to make a reliable determination. I'm glad I can't afford to play at that level. 1) I don't have enough cash and 2) vintage lefties are as rare as hens teeth, and when you do find them they are exorbitantly expensive.

That said I've still got my eyes out for a lefty single cut Jr!
 




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