Calling out Detlef @ Guitarpoint in Frankfurt am Main

Razzle Dazzle

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Hi Guys...:wave:

I't time for somebody to step up, and it looks like it's gonna be me and since i'ts actually only about vintage stuff I thought this would be the best area! I'm calling Detlef out on his BS now, I know I defended the guy in the past but his horrible business schemes just gotta be up in the open!

Detlef is the person who sells you a refinished '58 burst (that later on turns out to be a refinished '58 Goldtop within 1 minute of Eric Ernest looking at it) telling you it's all original and even writing authentication & cites papers about it, later on at home you realize the cream M69 rings are DMC and a year later you realize the "original" pickguard Detlef took out of his safe while doing the sale (telling you it's 100% original and from his personal stash) is fake as well! I had to bring 5 out of 8 vintage guitars/amps back after a few days (it's a 4 hour drive for me to Frankfurt) because something was not right about them. This includes an 60's Fender amp that started smoking the second you plug it in, a WW2 era Gibson Archtop that clearly had a refinished headstock under blacklight telling you some BS story about how it could be possible for it to be original and putting it back online as soon as he got it back (and selling it), the refinished '58 Burst that was actually a Goldtop with most parts being fake & a late/early 64/65 Marshall Bluesbreaker for 12k€ that is a straight up fake (confirmed by Eric Ernest vie UK Marshall Expert John Marlow) while telling about all the fakes from Music Ground in UK (I heard stories about them working together from a few sources now so jokes on me for even believing one word). I mean I spend 6 figures at his store and this is how he takes advantage of a customer like that? I don't even wanna know how he manipulates his regular customers that spend a couple grand at his place...

I don't even wanna give the amp back, he'll just swipe everything under the rug and resell it to somebody else. I'll take the hit (it's for sale for 4500$ as a replica in the Member Classifieds) so I can make all of this public! Even if guys like him continue to ruin their reputation and giving all the good guys a bad spotlight, at least you gotta speak up!

I hope y'all got some stories as well or at least some thoughts about what Detlef is doing!

Peace Out, or like they would say in Canada: Peace Ut!
 

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rockinlespaul

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I've heard a lot of horror stories about that place. Sorry to hear you got taken like that.
 

Jumping@shadows

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Hi Guys...:wave:

I't time for somebody to step up, and it looks like it's gonna be me and since i'ts actually only about vintage stuff I thought this would be the best area! I'm calling Detlef out on his BS now, I know I defended the guy in the past but his horrible business schemes just gotta be up in the open!

Detlef is the person who sells you a refinished '58 burst (that later on turns out to be a refinished '58 Goldtop within 1 minute of Eric Ernest looking at it) telling you it's all original and even writing authentication & cites papers about it, later on at home you realize the cream M69 rings are DMC and a year later you realize the "original" pickguard Detlef took out of his safe while doing the sale (telling you it's 100% original and from his personal stash) is fake as well! I had to bring 5 out of 8 vintage guitars/amps back after a few days (it's a 4 hour drive for me to Frankfurt) because something was not right about them. This includes an 60's Fender amp that started smoking the second you plug it in, a WW2 era Gibson Archtop that clearly had a refinished headstock under blacklight telling you some BS story about how it could be possible for it to be original and putting it back online as soon as he got it back (and selling it), the refinished '58 Burst that was actually a Goldtop with most parts being fake & a late/early 64/65 Marshall Bluesbreaker for 12k€ that is a straight up fake (confirmed by Eric Ernest vie UK Marshall Expert John Marlow) while telling about all the fakes from Music Ground in UK (I heard stories about them working together from a few sources now so jokes on me for even believing one word). I mean I spend 6 figures at his store and this is how he takes advantage of a customer like that? I don't even wanna know how he manipulates his regular customers that spend a couple grand at his place...

I don't even wanna give the amp back, he'll just swipe everything under the rug and resell it to somebody else. I'll take the hit (it's for sale for 4500$ as a replica in the Member Classifieds) so I can make all of this public! Even if guys like him continue to ruin their reputation and giving all the good guys a bad spotlight, at least you gotta speak up!

I hope y'all got some stories as well or at least some thoughts about what Detlef is doing!

Peace Out, or like they would say in Canada: Peace Ut!
I have heard similar stories, and frankly I’m not surprised as there really is no correlation between ‘status’ and ‘honesty’ in this business, as recent dealings with Chicago Music Exchange have proven yet again.
What galls me the most is while one can make a mistake (although as self proclaimed ‘experts’ this stuff shouldn’t even get into the stock list, let alone be sold!), it’s obvious sellers are completely aware of all issues, but just don’t give a shit, and have zero intention to amend descriptions or any genuine remorse.

What was the outcome on the refin ‘58 Goldtop deal? I would post this on the LPF and TGP too.
 

RAG7890

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All I can say is ouch!

IMHO, l’d only deal with Eric, a few others I know well & trust and another really well known Guitarist who shall remain nameless.

Money makes people do funny things, no matter what the market.

I see people like this all the time & the Guitar industry is full of them........



:cheers2:
 
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yeti

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First off, good for you, RazzleDazzle, to step forward.

sorry to hear that. Stories like this spoil the whole vintage market
Sorry to disagree, but what spoils the vintage market IMO is the fact that the perpetrators can get away with it due to lack of legal action by their victims. If the worst case scenario for a dealer is to simply issue a refund, take the guitar back and re-list/ re-sell it then it is no surprise that this strategy becomes the modus operandi. The "usual suspects" all seem to have one thing in common, they can, at least for a long while, repeat their practices without it ever catching up with them.
For things to change one needs to document the fraud and take the responsible parties to court or at least report the fraud to the authorities.
Maybe that's naïve on my part, who knows.
I'm not trying to blame the victims either, just wondering why defrauding the vintage guitar community seems so easy from a dealer perspective.

As to the store in question I've always wondered why anyone would do business with these guys. One look at their website, pricing and descriptions disqualified them from serious consideration a long time ago, according to friends and acquaintances of mine with money to spend, not me. Is it the fact that they appear "tight" with legit personalities in the vintage world?
 
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Sharky

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Sorry to disagree, but what spoils the vintage market IMO is the fact that the perpetrators can get away with it due to lack of legal action by their victims.
yeah, you're right, not the stories spoil, but the perpetrators with their fraudulent actions and the defrauded buyers not taking any legal actions. In any other bidness they would. Just think of the used car market, defrauded buyers running to lawyers for every small undisclosed issue
 

1981 LPC

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All I can say is ouch!

IMHO, l’d only deal with Eric, a few others I know well & trust and another really well known Guitarist who shall remain nameless.

Money makes people do funny things, no matter what the market.

I see people like this all the time & the Guitar industry is full of them........



:cheers2:
$599 for a 58-60 Lincoln Mark V is a steal - even it is a four door parts-car!

Oh wait... wrong forum.
 

Mosster47

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I don't know that guy, but I love that city. When Rhein-Main was still open you could hit the Rocket on base and get toasted for about $7 then head out to light up the town.

Sorry, off topic.

Screw that guy and his shananagins!
 

guitman

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yeah, you're right, not the stories spoil, but the perpetrators with their fraudulent actions and the defrauded buyers not taking any legal actions. In any other bidness they would. Just think of the used car market, defrauded buyers running to lawyers for every small undisclosed issue
How do you prove the fraud to the judge? In Germany this has to be done through an expert (appraiser). There are about three authorised ones known to the courts, one of them is Detlef. Dog don‘t eat dog. So guess if you can find an appraiser for taking legal actions against another appraiser.
 

Cookie-boy

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How do you prove the fraud to the judge? In Germany this has to be done through an expert (appraiser). There are about three authorised ones known to the courts, one of them is Detlef. Dog don‘t eat dog. So guess if you can find an appraiser for taking legal actions against another appraiser.
Very good point!
 

AmericanMary

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There must be a reason you've taken issue here rather than on LesPaulForum. Wondering why that would be...Is it because Bonamassa will see and would more than likely have your ass?? I'm also wondering if you've even reached out to Detlef in regards to this or if you're just going to sit behind your computer.
 

Jumping@shadows

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How do you prove the fraud to the judge? In Germany this has to be done through an expert (appraiser). There are about three authorised ones known to the courts, one of them is Detlef. Dog don‘t eat dog. So guess if you can find an appraiser for taking legal actions against another appraiser.
Sad thing is it takes about 15 seconds for anyone who’s actually knowledgeable about this stuff to make the call- I’ve been asked to look at two guitars from CME recently bought for high 5 figures and one was a blinding reneck, and the other a blinding fake- both owners had owned the guitars for some months, and were very experienced with vintage.
The obvious advantage Detlef, CME, Gary Dick, Jim Singleton and other bad dealers have (all of whom, save the first, I’ve personally mediated major and flagrant multi thousand dollar bad deals with), is you assume they’re not gonna rip you off so you don’t do your due diligence, which is the fatal mistake imo.
 




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