Buying Music Gear w/ Bitcoin, Dodgecoin, Ethereum, etc.

Marcje

Junior Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2021
Messages
5
Reaction score
8
For anyone of an ecological bent (which hopefully most are nowadays) , Bitcoin uses more energy per annum than the whole of Argentina.
True, Bitcoin in it's current form is not sustainable.
Check out Nano currency though. It does all that Bitcoin promises, but faster, cheaper and greener. And it actually works.
I may be a bit biased...
 

ehb

Chief Discombobulator
Silver Supporting Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
36,623
Reaction score
155,377
The transaction fees are about $23 per transaction ATM (so send to 1$, you actually pay 24$).

Then there is the 'confirmation time' which is close to an hour now.
The network speed is limited to 7 transactions per second (worldwide).
Also, the energy consumption is massive; one transaction uses 740kWh. Enough to ride 2500miles in your Tesla.
Interesting technology for sure, but I'm betting on another coin ;-)
I call BS on fees.. I see 8-12% in a quick search... That will vary...
Confirmation times vary from my research.
I see kw/h numbers far less than your 740kw/h number... The numbers are all over the map which speaks volumes about accuracy... I've seen as low as 91....

As network speeds increase, Bitcoin blocks updated, efficiency will go up.
 

jk60LPTH

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2019
Messages
174
Reaction score
153
I'm no expert on Bitcoin, but I did research it a year or two ago and have kept my ears open since. In my opinion Bitcoin works more like an investment vehicle than currency. As others have mentioned, it's history has been very volatile, and like stock market investments, public emotion can be a significant determinant of it's value, i.e., when a market crash occurs, the depth of that crash is determined more by the stock holders' emotional perception than it is by the underlying value of that stock. People who understand this profit greatly when there's a market crash or huge loss because they run towards the market while others run away. Currency is much less affected during these times, and tangibles like gold, silver, and other precious metals increase in value not only because of their limited supply on Earth, but because they have industrial value as well and will always be necessary for production of many products. (As a side note, this could change radically overnight in the future, if plans to capture and mine asteroids which it is believed to have large amounts of gold and other precious metals pans out, but unlikely to happen any time soon, maybe not even in our lifetimes).

So, can someone tell me what the intrinsic valuation of Bitcoin is based one? Because, you buy it with currency or in exchange for physical products or commodities, but after that it's value seems to largely be based on what people believe it to be. To some extent, one could say that about currencies, but currencies are backed by the country which issued them, and should a county fail to be able to do that, only that country's currency is affected (okay, Euros work slightly differently because many countries are involved); however there is no underlying authority who can prop up Bitcoin- if it fails or has a major devaluation, it's affects are world-wide, not regional.

The concept of Bitcoin is intriguing, but in my opinion, in it's current 'experimental' state it still has some major drawbacks. When you buy something with a credit card from an unknown vendor, you have buyer protection. If that vendor tries to defraud you, they are traceable, and those funds can be recovered. There is no such protection with Bitcoin, AFAIK. There are financial institutions that are experimenting with crypto currency that they back against theft or fraud... which is what the credit card companies already do with traditional currency.

Another issue is that if you should 'lose' your bitcoin keys, that bitcoin is unrecoverable by you. You may have heard recently the news reports about a guy who has $220 million in Bitcoin can't remember the e password to a super secure USB drive that has the keys he needs to access it, and that the drive allows a limited number of tries before it bricks itself, and he, the last time I heard, had used up all but 2 attempts and has no idea anymore what the password is. According to the NY Times, of the approximately 18.5million existing Bitcoin, about 20% which are worth about $140 billion, appear to be in lost or stranded wallets. Unlike traditional banks or online wallets like PayPal, there is no institution or company that stores or can restore lost or forgotten passwords.

One of the arguments for Bitcoin mentioned earlier in this thread was that with Bitcoin, you can buy things in other countries without worrying about the differences in currencies... I already do this with my credit cards, never had a problem.

From what I can tell, one of the major reasons many people use Bitcoin is either for speculative investing, or for doing nefarious transactions, like purchases of illegal items like firearms and drugs on the dark web, hiding money to avoid taxation, money laundering, holding businesses, governments, and hospitals' computer networks for ransom, and the like. And like another poster in this thread mentioned, you can't completely hide your transactions using Bitcoin, even on the dark web. If the authorities want you bad enough, they'll find a way to track you down.... if you don't believe it, just ask Ross Ulbricth, the guy who started and sold drugs on Silk Road- you can find his current address in the Frederal Prisoner Registry- no rush, he's not going anywhere anytime soon. He's serving five sentences concurrently, including 2 life sentences without the possibility of parole. The Feds also seized over $1 billion in Bitcoin from Ulbricth.

There are other crypto currencies out there that are trying to resolve some of Bitcoin's shortcomings.
 

smallstar67

Junior Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2020
Messages
18
Reaction score
40
Anyone here ever buy guitars or music gear with cryptocurrency like Bitcoin, Dodgecoin, Ethereum, etc? I'm curious to hear about your experiences.

If you happen to know of guitar shops online that accept crypto, please post here so I can make a list.

By the way, you can use cryptocurrency and buy 1950's to early 1960's Gibson parts, amps and pedals here: https://www.mylespaul.com/threads/1950s-to-early-1960s-gibson-parts-from-my-own-personal-stash.451415/
I've looked into "make believe money" a little bit. From what I can gather, it was invented by people who used to play dungeons and dragons. You would probably be ok putting your "real" money into it to make a quick "virtual" money purchase, but you must ask yourself, "why is this guitar not for sale with real money?"
 

Harley90

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2013
Messages
190
Reaction score
121
Great post, again everyone is looking for a quick and easy explanation and unfortunately, not really easy to do or maybe not possible for full understanding.
A huge number of engineers globally are working to solve the problems outlined. These issues are being solved but not over night and not in one sentence simple solutions. Custody soon will not be an issue, that is big but to explain it means one needs a great understanding of "custody" and "trust" in the use case. A book can be written and there are a few that attempt to explain it.
Blockchain is being used all over for years in some cases but it's not publicized much in the same manner the using computers in business isn't a bullet point for sales, at one time it was.
Bitcoin is the verification of blockchain, any item of value can be used for illegal activities/money laundering...fine art sales is a method to move illegal sums, buy drugs from your local pusher - they take U.S. dollars not BTC nothing provides for more criminal activity than hard U.S. Currency - remember the IRAN billion dollar payments, was not in bitcoin, they didn't use that money to help their people. Any asset of value is a currency and can be used for illicit activity.
Governments by definition are Ponzi schemes....the ability that blockchain provides in multiple recorded ledger entries and the ability to send an original data file rather than a copy is the catalyst that started the crypto era.

Again unfortunate that it is a whole new world to understand, just like computers and cell phones, many people just don't understand and don't have the time, many just read headlines , form an opinion and move on, when asked about it they don't research it, they just ask others to explain it, so that they can reaffirm their original opinion.

Back when I had a cell phone in the 80's I was confronted with the same kind of ridicule and now many understand the benefits of cell phones, my guess is that these people did not reap the investment returns that were available in that new space at the time. Such as this new tech.
The info is out there if you have the time to research it, if you really want to understand what is going on.
Others just want to play guitar and I'm good with that too! YMMV.
 

rockstar232007

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 28, 2008
Messages
17,357
Reaction score
14,983
Try buying a house with a '59 LP - same principal. If somethings only worth what a few people say it's worth, then who's to say, that tomorrow it will be worth anything?

Fiat currencies (cash) are valued by real-world, market fluctuations, not driven by speculation, and/or the amount of people investing in it (ala "Ponzi-scheme")

The other downside of crypto is it's ability to be extremely manipulated, which it is, all the time, and why there are such huge swings.

I totally understand how the tech works, which is one of the main reasons I don't mess with it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ehb

ehb

Chief Discombobulator
Silver Supporting Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
36,623
Reaction score
155,377
Interesting post. I have been working in a blockchain company for 3 years now. The space is exploding because of the applications, crypto prices make the headlines but like many headlines there is no detail as to what is going on to actually cause it.
These applications are global in solutions and improvement in existing methods in many spaces.
People don't really need to understand it to use it, like electricity, the average joe on the street can't tell you in detail how the lights come on in a house or how a microwave works but it does and they all pay the bills monthly to use it.
The new era debit/credit cards are on the way, pay with any currency you want, as a seller, get whatever currency you want as paid. There is a reason many banks are getting into crypto.
Its a topic that requires research to understand at present. Most people just read headlines and form an opinion without detailed research. It's a new class of asset and has revolutionary/evolutionary applications.
Still in infancy stage, it will become more accepted as time goes on. I know many people who refuse to use or own a computer, cell phone. I still am friends with these people but not taking advice from them on financial matters or much else. My mind is open and I research everything, including guitars :) Everyone has an opinion good luck out there YMMV
I think there should be a level of understanding of basic functionality for anything to be accepted... Not nuts and bolts, but some level...

Way back, I taught classes about the internet itself early days, homes were just getting dialup, some local businesses were starting to get high speed (for that time).... I would push a hundred folks in a class every Sat at the company. From a farmer up to a high level biz mgr, every class was extreme to extreme. I looked at my job as to teach/explain/illuminate basically how the internet worked, then how email worked, etc., just enough they were not afraid of it and could browse web and do email with no problems... We went from zero to the largest regional provider in a short time. Far less headaches for my tech support folks, they could concentrate on real issues.

I think block chain tech is literally mind boggling in possibilities...

I remember hearing over and over, "How does this internet thing work and why I need it?" Show them enough to form a basic picture in their head of function, then you've got a shot at selling them the product.

Case in point: Some folks with one item in their hand will stay in line for thirty minutes at Wally World for a cashier, just to keep from going near a self-checkout....afraid of it. If the Do-Nuttins would explain basically how it works as they show folks how to scan, bag, and pay, over time less and less folks would need any help and more and more would use it. Move folks in/out faster.

Some folks still don't do debit cards, still write checks with entry registers... They do not understand enough to want it. Folks look at a Touch Pay like a hog looking at a wrist watch. No clue.

The winner is the one that makes folks understand enough to want their product.
 

ehb

Chief Discombobulator
Silver Supporting Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
36,623
Reaction score
155,377
I've looked into "make believe money" a little bit. From what I can gather, it was invented by people who used to play dungeons and dragons. You would probably be ok putting your "real" money into it to make a quick "virtual" money purchase, but you must ask yourself, "why is this guitar not for sale with real money?"
No more make believe than many countries' money. We are not on a gold standard, haven't been for a looooong time. Simply a promise... Just like many other countries. Nothing tangible backing it. What is a Diet Coke in Venezuela now, one or two wheel barrows of money?
 

GBLEV

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2007
Messages
586
Reaction score
505
.... if you don't believe it, just ask Ross Ulbricth, the guy who started and sold drugs on Silk Road- you can find his current address in the Frederal Prisoner Registry- no rush, he's not going anywhere anytime soon. He's serving five sentences concurrently, including 2 life sentences without the possibility of parole. The Feds also seized over $1 billion in Bitcoin from Ulbricth.

There are other crypto currencies out there that are trying to resolve some of Bitcoin's shortcomings.
If I'm not mistaken, the feds sold off his all of his Bitcoins, worth about $600 million dollars at the time, for around $48 million dollars, or something like that. Now there's a Bitcoin investment for you!
 

jk60LPTH

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2019
Messages
174
Reaction score
153
Bitcoin is the verification of blockchain, any item of value can be used for illegal activities/money laundering...fine art sales is a method to move illegal sums, buy drugs from your local pusher - they take U.S. dollars not BTC nothing provides for more criminal activity than hard U.S. Currency
I think you overlooked the most important part of this issue, being that Bitcoin is attractive to people engaged in criminal activity because it's far more difficult to trace and requires far more resources to track and prosecute, and law enforcement resources limit them to be used for the most egregious offenses. It would be rare to show up to buy an expensive painting with a couple of suitcase of cash, it raises the eyebrows of legitimate dealers and leaves a trail that's easily traces with warrants at it's source and destination, leading to further investigation, which might be for money laundering, tax evasion, or other criminal activity. Paying with Bitcoin circumvents these up to the point when it rises to the level where federal resources can be justified, because state and local governments generally just don't have the budget for such things.

- remember the IRAN billion dollar payments, was not in bitcoin, they didn't use that money to help their people. Any asset of value is a currency and can be used for illicit activity.
Governments by definition are Ponzi schemes....the ability that blockchain provides in multiple recorded ledger entries and the ability to send an original data file rather than a copy is the catalyst that started the crypto era.
With regard to the transfer of US dollars to Iran, and governments being Ponzi schemes... can we please agree not to bring politics into this discussion?
[/QUOTE]

Again unfortunate that it is a whole new world to understand, just like computers and cell phones, many people just don't understand and don't have the time, many just read headlines , form an opinion and move on, when asked about it they don't research it, they just ask others to explain it, so that they can reaffirm their original opinion.
Unfortunate? Not in my book, it's an opportunity! ...to learn about something new!
I built my first 'Personal Computer' circa 1975... definitely crude compared to what we have today. I built it because no company manufactured a personal computer until years later. I was fascinated by the concept of something not just being a one-trick pony... that a device could be programmed to do different tasks. I was excited by this, and shared my excitement with friends and family... their response was universal...."...what would anyone ever need a computer in their home for???" Disappointing. The irony of it was that, a number of years later the same people were asking me what kind of computer they should buy. Sometimes it's not easy being an early adopter.

Back when I had a cell phone in the 80's I was confronted with the same kind of ridicule and now many understand the benefits of cell phones, my guess is that these people did not reap the investment returns that were available in that new space at the time. Such as this new tech.
The info is out there if you have the time to research it, if you really want to understand what is going on.
Others just want to play guitar and I'm good with that too! YMMV.
I had one of those lunchbox-sized ones from Mototola with a telephone handset and a 2 foot whip antenna.... wish I still had it- I'd rip the guts out and interface an iPhone inside the empty shell! An iPhone would run for 6 months on the huge battery that came with that Motorola.
 

GBLEV

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2007
Messages
586
Reaction score
505
Case in point: Some folks with one item in their hand will stay in line for thirty minutes at Wally World for a cashier, just to keep from going near a self-checkout....afraid of it. If the Do-Nuttins would explain basically how it works as they show folks how to scan, bag, and pay, over time less and less folks would need any help and more and more would use it. Move folks in/out faster.
I applaud these people! It's because of people who are willing to stand in long lines for a cashier that there are paying jobs available as a cashier.

In reality, technology takes away jobs, and it makes people lazy, not using their brains as much as people use to. Think about it? Today, people use technology to create things for whatever reason, and to do it faster with less effort. People of the ancient world, while they did not have technology or modern tools we have today, built pyramids and coliseums. They were forced to use their brains and figure out things on their own without the help of a computer.

You may say, "Wait a minute! We have people today building skyscrapers and stadiums!" I would say, "Your right, but let's see if they are still standing in 2000 to 4000 years..."

These people were far smarter because of it, and far smarter than what a lot of people today believe they were. After all, it is from the ancient word thinkers that gave modern technology it's birth.

While I love technology, I will always do math in my head to keep my brain sharp. I will also wait in a long lines to pay as long as it supports a job for another person. Especially if there is a nice hottie waiting at the end to give me a smile and take my money ;)

As far as cryptocurrency is concerned, I'm sure one day it will be a 'thing' and will rule the day with internet purchases. Now might even be a great time for investing in it? But I think I'll wait for it to stabilize more before I think too much about it. Even then, if there is nothing of intangible value that it is based on, how could you ever really trust it, or know who is in control of it? So until then, I'll just listen to William Devane and buy gold!
 

rockstar232007

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 28, 2008
Messages
17,357
Reaction score
14,983
I applaud these people! It's because of people who are willing to stand in long lines for a cashier that there are paying jobs available as a cashier.

In reality, technology takes away jobs, and it makes people lazy, not using their brains as much as people use to. Think about it? Today, people use technology to create things for whatever reason, and to do it faster with less effort. People of the ancient world, while they did not have technology or modern tools we have today, built pyramids and coliseums. They were forced to use their brains and figure out things on their own without the help of a computer.

You may say, "Wait a minute! We have people today building skyscrapers and stadiums!" I would say, "Your right, but let's see if they are still standing in 2000 to 4000 years..."

These people were far smarter because of it, and far smarter than what a lot of people today believe they were. After all, it is from the ancient word thinkers that gave modern technology it's birth.

While I love technology, I will always do math in my head to keep my brain sharp. I will also wait in a long lines to pay as long as it supports a job for another person. Especially if there is a nice hottie waiting at the end to give me a smile and take my money ;)

As far as cryptocurrency is concerned, I'm sure one day it will be a 'thing' and will rule the day with internet purchases. Now might even be a great time for investing in it? But I think I'll wait for it to stabilize more before I think too much about it. Even then, if there is nothing of intangible value that it is based on, how could you ever really trust it, or know who is in control of it? So until then, I'll just listen to William Devane and buy gold!
The issue is, in order for it to be "stablized", it will have to be heavily regulated - bad news for those who believe that crypto is a good way to circumvent the gov/feds.

Same thing with the pot industry - all the people who want it legalized, are now bitching about how much the gov is involved with regulation, and taxation.


The bottom line is, be very careful what you wish for.
 
Last edited:

Harley90

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2013
Messages
190
Reaction score
121
Last comment here for me as I'm working, it's good to see the crypto debate in a forum like this. I work in the space and hoped my comments could be helpful but as with most comments there items taken not as intended and folks are just looking to justify their own opinions, minds are closed and mine is too to some degree, I really only like Gibson Les Paul guitars and why I am here on the forum.
Have fun everyone and do what you like and like what you do! Live and let live. YMMV
 

ehb

Chief Discombobulator
Silver Supporting Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
36,623
Reaction score
155,377
Last comment here for me as I'm working, it's good to see the crypto debate in a forum like this. I work in the space and hoped my comments could be helpful but as with most comments there items taken not as intended and folks are just looking to justify their own opinions, minds are closed and mine is too to some degree, I really only like Gibson Les Paul guitars and why I am here on the forum.
Have fun everyone and do what you like and like what you do! Live and let live. YMMV
Kind of envious to be honest. I find this new industry exciting in the sense of possibilities. As everything internet was, the potential is even greater for block chain in general.
 

rockstar232007

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 28, 2008
Messages
17,357
Reaction score
14,983
Kind of envious to be honest. I find this new industry exciting in the sense of possibilities. As everything internet was, the potential is even greater for block chain in general.
On the large-scale (business-business), I agree. But, on the consumer level - too much involved.

Like you pointed out in a previous post - many people, especially those on the lower end, don't really understand how much time/money/energy (power) it takes to generate crypto. To them it's just something that magically pops into their "wallet".
 

Porscheman

Junior Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2014
Messages
8
Reaction score
11
Aside from the volatility issues, just remember that paying with Bitcoin is pretty much like mailing cash money in an envelope to a random address. If you never receive what you bought or it's defective, you won't be getting a refund unless the seller is 100% honest and reliable. There is no way of knowing who owns the wallet and where they are in the entire world once you've transferred the Bitcoin. I presume people must be using escrow services, which involves some additional cost, for significant purchases. Be careful out there.
 

Joe A

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2016
Messages
162
Reaction score
72
I don't have a music store but I'd gladly accept crypto in private sales.

It will become commonplace in a relatively short period of time. As high as the cost to produce cryptos is, it still pales in comparison to manufacturing and distributing cash/coins.

As time goes on the price will become more stable.

Many people convert to a stable coin to use for actual trading, which is a coin with a fixed value tied to fiat currency which avoids the issue of value changing during or immediately after a transaction.

Crypto & digital currency is here to stay. The only question is will you get in while there are still huge opportunities for exponential profits? :)
 

Joe A

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2016
Messages
162
Reaction score
72
For anyone of an ecological bent (which hopefully most are nowadays) , Bitcoin uses more energy per annum than the whole of Argentina.
Not exactly true but it is a common talking point for anti-crypto folks these days.

Look at the cost of cash & coins. Manufacturing the fabrics, printing, mining the metals. Consider the fuel used in all the armored cars driving cash & coins all over the world right now. The distribution alone cost & energy use is staggering. The actual cost of producing physical currencies is greater than mining crypto.

The other factor is all of the major industrial scale mining operations are installing solar farms to power them.

The energy use argument is moot.
 


Latest Threads



Top