Builds and pricing; a discussion..

[LtDave32]

Okay boys (and girl ); ), first off I'm doing fine, and have no complaints, other than I'm busier than I ought to be, and I'm in the shop every dang day. Exhausted. Gotta catch up.

But, the pricing of builds.. This is purely hypothetical, I'm not raising my prices any time soon at all.

I'm just curious.

Let's say you've got an order in for a simple guitar most of us have done frequently; a no-frills regular old junior DC.

And let's say you are charging (again, just hypothetically for the sake of discussion) $ 2000.00 for the build.

Customer wants the best of everything, one-piece Honduran body and neck, top-grade hardware, dead-flat and glossy nitro finish.

Much like the VOS models.

Let's say you're going to set aside $1,000 for materials. In this day, for a nicely figured and light one-piece Honduran body and neck, and the cost of top-drawer hardware, that is not unreasonable.

So that leaves us $1000.00 for the build labor? Something that is by anybody's schedule, a few weeks to get done, no matter how you break it up?

Finishing is tricky. You can't do it in "a day". You have to seal, grain fill, spray coats, more clear coats, sand back, more clear coats, then wait to harden, wet-sand it to glass-like, then buff.

On a junior, that finishing takes longer than the actual wood build. Much longer.


Doesn't seem very much wage for the labor, does it?

Think of what one does at a regular job to earn a $1000 paycheck.

If you had everything in front of you, nothing else in the shop, no distractions, you could get the wood part of a junior build done in three-four days.

That's making a fret board from Brazilian, planing it, cutting slots, radius, adding dots, fretting.

That's shaping a neck by hand, headstock and wings, drill for tuners, truss rod, etc.

That's cutting a rough body out on the band saw, routing a body shape to pattern, routing pickup cavities, control cavity, neck pocket and angle (or angle on the tenon, which is what I do), cutting a 3/8 round over on the outer perimeter, sanding it all to 220 git, ready for spray-finish.

Cutting a nut, truss rod access, gluing up the fret board, setting the neck, cleaning up excess glue, etc etc.

Then we enter the Wonderful World of Finishing.

Sure, we could cut corners and save time with poly. But that's not what I'm asking here.

Is a thousand bucks fair compensation for the build?

Again, this is not what I charge. I get a bit more.

 

[Roxy13]

For me it probably would be because I have no reputation yet. For most of the people here it would not be great pay I think, but I also think guitar builders and repairers are not paid enough from what I see. It's more a labor of love, which is not much different than what I did most of my life by being in education.

Obviously at this time I wouldn't even dream of taking on a custom build. When the first ones are done this year the way I see it is if someone really likes something I will certainly entertain a reasonable offer for it.

You also have wear and tear on your tools. It's not like router bits or anything else lasts forever. And even sandpaper can add up.

 

[Duane_the_tub]

That sounds like an incredible amount of work for that amount of money. It also requires a very high level of skill, which is something else the customer pays for in just about every other instance in life. It's not like you're putting in those hours digging a ditch.

I'd say it should cost twice that amount in labor. I'd have no problem paying it.

 

[mudface]

I don’t believe it’s enough for labor.... and it’s definitely not enough for experience.

It’s the combination of both that makes an master build.

But that’s just my opinion

 

[fatdaddypreacher]

while i am not nearly as experienced as you or many others here, I have come to the practice that i never plan on keeping up with the time it takes to build a guitar of any design, as i'm sure i would quit. but loosely figuring, I generally charge the same to finish as i do to build...allowing of course that this is completely hobby. If it was my main source of income, i simply couldn't do it. your labor number is way less than it's worth, but it really up to what the market will bear.

 

[ElChoad]

I'll give you $500.

 

[Roberteaux]

Well, sir: do you remember what I said to you the day you quoted the price you'd charge me for the Telecaster you built?

You may not, so I will remind you: you asked me if I thought the price was fair and I wondered aloud how I was getting a price like that without a mask and a gun.

But really, Dave: I was kidding on the square when I said that. The only "joking" part of it was the mask and gun comment. Other than that, I was astonished by the price. Seriously.

I've always felt that your builds were worth WAY more than you charged for 'em.

Holy shit, try and get some of this shit from pretty much anybody else, and see what they might charge ya... and see how you're gonna wait to get it, too!

Now, I know guys who make a grand a pop painting motorcycles... that is, a gas tank and two fenders. That gets you a nice paint job and some nice pin striping. But if you want the graphic of the buxom cave woman with the leather thong and riding a polar bear or something on the tanks and details to match on the fenders?

It's gonna cost a lot more. But just to sandblast some shit, and do about a twelve-coat lacquer job on your tanks and shit? One grand, man.

And they aren't EVEN dealing with the sort of details that you get into while fabricating a guitar from scratch. They fabricate nothing, just paint stuff!

--R

 

[LtDave32]

For me it probably would be because I have no reputation yet. For most of the people here it would not be great pay I think, but I also think guitar builders and repairers are not paid enough from what I see. It's more a labor of love, which is not much different than what I did most of my life by being in education.

Obviously at this time I wouldn't even dream of taking on a custom build. When the first ones are done this year the way I see it is if someone really likes something I will certainly entertain a reasonable offer for it.

You also have wear and tear on your tools. It's not like router bits or anything else lasts forever. And even sandpaper can add up.

Damn right. I go through a ton of sandpaper. I have to have really good paper, and I end up buying it online in bulk. And I use a lot of it.

I just paid $26 for a gallon of "cheapie" lacquer for cleaning so I won't use up my good Cardinal spraying thinner. Night and day difference. Generic brand is cold. lots of acetone. Cardinal is not cold at all.

 

[wildhawk1]

For me it probably would be because I have no reputation yet. For most of the people here it would not be great pay I think, but I also think guitar builders and repairers are not paid enough from what I see. It's more a labor of love, which is not much different than what I did most of my life by being in education.

Obviously at this time I wouldn't even dream of taking on a custom build. When the first ones are done this year the way I see it is if someone really likes something I will certainly entertain a reasonable offer for it.

You also have wear and tear on your tools. It's not like router bits or anything else lasts forever. And even sandpaper can add up.

It's always the big picture.

In the OP's example clearing $1000 a build would mean cranking out one guitar a week for a 52k yearly income.

Taking into account being self employed means paying your own health insurance along with no pension plan or matching 401k is it worth it?

If a person is retired and doing it as a labor of love with a little side income being a bonus then yes, worth it.

For the lone wolf trying to make a living it's simply not viable for anyone except a select few masters of the art.

 

[LtDave32]

That sounds like an incredible amount of work for that amount of money. It also requires a very high level of skill, which is something else the customer pays for in just about every other instance in life. It's not like you're putting in those hours digging a ditch.

I'd say it should cost twice that amount in labor. I'd have no problem paying it.

You are the sort of customer I really like, and that's not a joke. I wouldn't charge twice that amount though.

We have to remain competitive to the big houses. They have invested millions in automated equipment.

My only advantage to offer is that I do it all by hand and hand-guided tools and achieve a high level of build quality doing that. People want that. I hand-carve all my necks, but I went through an awful lot to get here with the skills.

But, and for the sake of this conversation, I can't charge more than Gibson for doing my version of a jr. Why not just by a Gibson Jr?

I have to keep it under 3K. Well under 3k for a jr.

When you start getting into binding, nibs, shaped inlays, etc, the labor just climbs.

I'm still doing it for the love of the craft. I do still love it.

There's nothing quite like wandering into my shop on a Spring morning, coffee in hand, put on some shop music and start making sawdust. No "boss man", all on my terms. No clock to punch, sometimes I'm out there at 3AM, with the wife working graves, I'm just "up" for no real reason.

I love it.

 

[LtDave32]

while i am not nearly as experienced as you or many others here, I have come to the practice that i never plan on keeping up with the time it takes to build a guitar of any design, as i'm sure i would quit. but loosely figuring, I generally charge the same to finish as i do to build...allowing of course that this is completely hobby. If it was my main source of income, i simply couldn't do it. your labor number is way less than it's worth, but it really up to what the market will bear.

Bob, this is what my wife says. She keeps trying to corral me into "man hours" on the time I spend, and I just can't. Some shit takes longer, even if it's the same shit.

It's just the way it is. Hell, I'd be scared to tally up hours. I might find I'm working for 25 cents an hour..

 

[LtDave32]

I'll give you $500.

great, send a PP . That just bought you one-fifth of your dream junior..

 

[LtDave32]

But if you want the graphic of the buxom cave woman with the leather thong and riding a polar bear

Now, who doesn't want that?

It might even inspire a guitar build, a bike paint job, mural for a 70's chester-van..

But yeah, If not for my lovely wife, I'd take the leather thonged bear-rider..

In fact, in some ways, Anna is a leather-thonged bear-rider..

 

[LtDave32]

Well, sir: do you remember what I said to you the day you quoted the price you'd charge me for the Telecaster you built?:

You may not, so I will remind you: you asked me if I thought the price was fair and I wondered aloud how I was getting a price like that without a mask and a gun.

But really, Dave: I was kidding on the square when I said that. The only "joking" part of it was the mask and gun comment. Other than that, I was astonished by the price. Seriously.

I've always felt that your builds were worth WAY more than you charged for 'em.

Rob, you caught me on the cusp of being a "sometimes" hobby builder to going in with both feet. Not when I went pro with Desert Star, but just a few years before.

I think I did that Tele for something like $1600. But it was for a buddy , so I didn't mind.

 

[Tweaker]

Pricing has been a struggle for me in all my business dealings. Sometimes it's "this is what it costs for it to be worth it for me" and other times it's a lot more calculated out. And depending on the client and/or job, sometimes there's a big "suck tax."

As a general rule, anything I buy for ANY project/job gets marked up, regardless of where I made the purchase. I'm not doing this out of the goodness of my heart, I'm trying to earn a living and deserve to be compensated for my time in researching/sourcing materials, etc. Plus, if I have to hire some help for a job, I'm not paying my helper from MY labor. That money needs to come from somewhere and I'm not taking that hit. Ergo, markup, and some extra labor added to the bid. Markup is necessary in order to grow.

That said, a lot of builders are hobbyists and do it for fun. But even when a hobby builder does a guitar for cheap, the end consumer still expects REALLY GOOD WORK which can become an issue for the builder...the quality of work isn't the issue, but rather the extra time and frustration it might take and lack of compensation for said time/frustration.

Regarding the hypothetical $1000 in labor for the guitar, and is it enough...that's tricky. Some jobs are very much paid based on what the job is worth, and other jobs are paid on what the individual is worth. I worked as a medical assistant for a foot doctor for a few months, and it grossed me out. Not to toot my own horn, but I did a dang good job and caught on quick. But the job was only worth $16/hr, and I was easily replaceable.

Take that to guitar building...it gets messy. A custom guitar can probably go for well over $10k, but I'd say most customers would look at that price and say it's still a guitar, and it shouldn't cost more than an Epiphone. But the builder isn't replaceable and should be compensated for what he/she is worth. So it also has to come down to the customer and their understanding that they aren't buying a guitar, so to speak. They're buying the builder, and there is a premium associated with that.

At this point in my life, a commissioned build pulls me away from other likely more profitable jobs, so there has to be some opportunity cost involved.

Long story short...in my book it largely depends on your end goal. Are you trying to make money or are you just funding a hobby, etc.


(I don't think my post actually came to any sort of conclusion...just nonsensical ramblings..)

 

[Sp8ctre]

I completely see where you are coming from and $1000 is not enough for the labor.

I make handmade custom knives. It's a hobby but people are trying to make it a business.

I don't want it to become a business because then I'm on the hook to get a product out quickly.

Most people don't want to spend more than $100 to $200 for a knife. They don't get the fact that the steel and wood alone can cost me $50 - $75. Not to mention consumable like grinding belts, sandpaper, finish products.

It also takes me anywhere from 20 - 40 hours of labor to make a good kitchen knife.

I didn't even mention the large $$$ tools I had to buy to do everything in house...

So no, your time is worth way more than $1000 a build!

 

[LtDave32]

I don't think my post actually came to any sort of conclusion...just nonsensical ramblings

Nah, it's good. I want lots of perspectives here.

I've gone over as many of you know to full time, both builds and repairs. I'm steaming necks out for resets, pulling fret boards, that sort of thing.

And that gets tricky, because on a trans-finish guitar, the work needs to be like factory and invisible. There's a lot of skill and a ton of patience involved.

 

[Tweaker]

People need to understand that you have to be compensated for your patience. Sounds like you're looking at it from a business perspective and not a hobby perspective. Charge more brother, those guitars won't build themselves.

 

[LtDave32]

I don't want it to become a business because then I'm on the hook to get a product out quickly.

Good lord, I know it.

I just today turned a guy down on a DC junior because I couldn't get it done in 2 months time. He's going back to college overseas, and I just can't shove it in front of others.

I 've got a lot of builds, and from what I hear, a good reputation for which I'm humbled and grateful to have. I can't screw that up. I'm behind as it is. I'd wager a LOT of us are behind.

But if my good, gracious folks cannot wait, I have to say no. I can't forsake the others who have put me in business.

So he says he'll revisit it in August when he returns. That would be great.

But yeah, I'm under a lot of pressure now. Lot's of builds to cover, and I'm at the point of telling new business that they have to wait six months before I can even start.

I have currently a customer that has physical challenge to where he needs a Les Paul under 8 lbs. Nearest the 7 lb mark as I can get it. It took me quite a while to even find wood for his LP.

Another guy, I had searched the world over (literally, online) for Korina clean enough for a dead-nuts 58 V build. I ended up finding practically in my own back yard. Very very lucky.

Cleanest Limba i have ever seen. I bought extra. -and now sold that on another build, just today (Neff, he says he can wait a while)

Sourcing some of this stuff takes time. Especially with the body wood. Nobody wants a wharf bollard for a guitar, we all want it at the magic 7-8 lb mark.

That means you have to pour over board/feet numbers (under 2.3 lbs per bd/ft is good), select the wood according to that, and according to figure, and the best looking, lightest stuff goes for the most money, naturally.

I'm currently loving Spanish Cedar for this reason.

( @fatdaddypreacher Bob, I will order some I'm just caught up right now. Maybe by the end of the week I'll place an order)

 

[Roberteaux]

Rob, you caught me on the cusp of being a "sometimes" hobby builder to going in with both feet. Not when I went pro with Desert Star, but just a few years before.

I think I did that Tele for something like $1600. But it was for a buddy , so I didn't mind.

Deepest Thanks, man... that one's going into the retort chamber with me, come cremation time...

Yep! I'm taking it WITH me!

--Rob