Broken magnet. What are my magnets? Ceramic vs. Alnico 2 vs. Alnico 5?

[Sam Spade]

Not sure if this is the correct sub-forum, but here goes. And please pardon the length of this posting. I figured it was better to get all my pickup problems into a single posting instead of dividing them up.


I have a Brownsville clone of an ES-335. (Okay, it ain't a Gibson, but I'm still learning how to play, and I gotta start somewhere.) I have no-name pickups. Neck pickup measures 8.4K ohms and bridge pickup measures 13.6K ohms. Both pickups have the standard nickel/chrome (whatever) covers. I like the tones, but...


This whole project started for two reasons: (1) I couldn't figure out why, when my pickup switch was in middle position, I could turn guitar volume completely off just by turning down either pickup volume control; (2) I wanted to stave off a case of Guitar Acquisition Syndrome after playing with a telecaster at Guitar Center.


Problem #1 resolves by rewiring the controls from "1950s wiring" (as my guitar was originally wired) to "modern wiring" (giving me completely independent volume controls). Problem #2 resolves by coil tapping; my pickups are originally wired as insulated single conductor with a shield all wrapped inside another insulation layer, so I need to tear apart the pickups to change over to 4-conductor wiring with an outer braided shield.


I did a few stupid things with this job.


With the neck pup, I kept trying to break the solder joints on the back of the pickup to the cover with ever more powerful soldering irons and soldering guns. I did a good job melting the wax potting out of the pickup. (At least I had the good sense to put down a piece of cardboard atop the kitchen table before I started.) Realizing I now needed to re-pot the pickup at the end of the job, I took the pickup completely apart. I accidentally dropped the magnet from the table to the wood floor, and it did NOT break.


With the bridge pickup, I decided to clear the wax potting so I could access the wires by heating it in water using a double boiler. And after I did this, I realized I now had a pickup soggy with water. When I got to the magnet, I lifted up one end and the magnet broke. Well, either I broke it or it was already broken. I don't see how lifting an unpotted magnet off the back of the coils should cause the magnet to break, especially when dropping the other magnet to the floor caused no harm.


Here are the problems I now face, together with some solutions.


-------------------------------------------------------------------


1. A waterlogged pickup: My solution is to use the dehumidifiers for my father's hearing aids. These little packs of gel crystals are heated in the oven at 350 degrees F for a good while until the crystals turn pink, and then they are placed into an appropriate container. I will use a glass jelly jar. I will place a piece of dry cloth over the gel packs and then place the water-logged coils on top, then seal the jar. I expect to do this repeatedly over the next couple of days.


Anybody have an opinion about this?


2. A broken magnet: I can correctly align the broken magnet parts, and hold them in position, using the unbroken magnet. I will use the long edges of the magnets. I will lay the whole thing on a perfectly flat surface and use a bit of JBWeld to join the two broken magnet parts. The unbroken magnet will hold the broken magnets in the correct position while the JBWeld dries. I can use a razor blade or an Exacto knife, perfects even a small piece of sandpaper, to remove excess JBWeld after the joint dries. This should not have any effect on the cumulative magnetism of the once-broken soon-to-be fixed magnet.


Anybody have an opinion about this repair?


3. Correct magnet polarity directions: I don't think it matters at all which side is north and which side is south so long as the same poles of each magnet are placed against the polepiece screws. So, I turn the magnets so that they repel each other, and the repelling edge of each magnet will go against the polepiece screws. I also don't think it matters whatsoever whether the magnets are placed upside down relative to each other because magnetism is uniaxial, meaning in one direction only; the north pole is still way up north whether you're in California or on the other side of the world in Uzbekistan. I mention this because some folks think otherwise, that flipping a magnet upside down somehow changes the phase. Based on my own academic experience of electromagnetism, I'd say that cannot be true.


Anybody have an opinion about this?


4. What the heck are my magnets? Ceramic or alnico? They are black and very smooth. As this is a cheapo guitar, I assume they are ceramic.


5. Should I even bother fixing my broken magnet, or should I use this as an opportunity to change the sound, maybe even improve it, by procuring either Alnico 2 or Alnico 5 magnets? I will probably never be more than a rhythm player, but I like the sound of Chuck Berry's Gibson semi-hollow (whatever model he used in the 1950s) and B.B. King's Lucille (which I heard live in 1977 and still remember), an ES-355 with 490R Alnico magnet humbucker and 490T Alnico magnet humbucker. Gibson says the 490R and 490T both use Alnico 2 magnets. <Modern Classics> StewMac, on the other hand, suggests using Alnico 2 for the bridge pickup and Alnico 5 for the neck pickup. <STEWMAC.COM : Alnico Bar Magnet>


So, what should I do: Stick to my cheapo magnets of unknown composition (but I'll assume them to be ceramic), switch to Alnico 2, switch to Alnico 5, or switch to a combination of Alinico 2 and Alnico 5?


-------------------------------------------------------------------


Thanks ahead of time to whoever reads this long posting, let alone responds to it.

 

[DPaulCustom]

1st, Magnets are cheap, you can get them here
magnets guitar, baseplates items in Addiction-FX Guitar and Sound store on eBay!
from your description, I believe they're ceramic, but some people complain about ceramic being too harsh, YMMV.
If you like the way the pups sounded, you can just replace the ceramic mags you broke, with a new one.
I'd suggest doing some research on the guitar to see if you can find out what value the mag was, ie C2, C5, C8...
You can change the "flavor" of a pup by changing the mag value.
Pics of the pups might help to identify
FWIW, I would do the UOA5 in the bridge, and an A5 in the neck, based on the output you listed. Others might have different suggestions

For future reference, removing covers using a soldering iron IS a bit of a b@#*h,
I suggest using a razor scraper, rocking it back & forth across the solder joint. I use a 29cent one. the blade doesn't stick out far enough to risk damage to the coil wire. Just remember to pry out on the covers when removing the whole pup, so the cut edge of the solder doesn't get into the coil wire.
There isn't any real need to remove the whole pup from the cover to swap the mags, as you can just lift "gently" the baseplate, but since you are changing to 4 wire, you'll have to remove. in this case, just use a hairdryer to soften the wax. You won't have to repot the pup, just use the dryer again when you go to reassemble

As far as the "waterlogged" thing, With all the wax, you probably don't have a lot to worry about, just let em sit out for a day or so, or use a hairdryer again.

I wouldn't try repairing the broke magnet, i've had broken ceramic mags before. When you try to piece it back together, does it repel at the break?, mine did

 

[BulldogXTRM]

I wouldn't try repairing the broke magnet, i've had broken ceramic mags before. When you try to piece it back together, does it repel at the break?, mine did

It shouldn't have repelled at the break. The only way that could happen is that when it broke it had a pole reversal on one side of the break. I guess it could happen but doesn't make sense to me.

To the OP, you do realize that putting electronics in water is a bad thing right?

Just let it air dry for a couple of days and it should be fine. I agree with DPaul's recommendation on the magnets.

 

[Dougie]

Well, I can certainly understand an inquisitive mind, but the real truth is that in the time it took you to type all that, you could have went and found an affordable pair of pickups that would have already had 4 conductor wiring and would have been a nice upgrade to the guitar.

Do you know what the term "diminishing return" means? It means that once you arrive at a certain point or threshold, any further effort will be a waste. I think you are at that point with your hard boiled pickup, and maybe it should be chalked up to experience and abandon the effort to fix it. Go find another pickup or a pair of them and have fun with the new ones!

Oh btw, welcome to the forum!

 

[DPaulCustom]

It shouldn't have repelled at the break. The only way that could happen is that when it broke it had a pole reversal on one side of the break. I guess it could happen but doesn't make sense to m

I'm no magnet expert, & it seemed funny to me when it happened.
It was an epiphone pup from an old sg, one of my first attempts at swapping.
When I pulled it, I dropped it on the tile floor in the kitchen. It wound up in 3 pieces.
My bumb ass thought, "i'll just tape it back together".
I got the electric tape, cut a piece long enough for the repair, stuck it to the first piece, pulled the second piece into place, let it go to apply the tape, & it moved away!
FILE 13

 

[Dougie]

FILE 13 I love it ahha.. Any magnet when it is parted does that, then it's like sticking separate magnets to each other and it won't ever go back like it was.

 

[DPaulCustom]

FILE 13 I love it ahha.. Any magnet when it is parted does that, then it's like sticking separate magnets to each other and it won't ever go back like it was.

I Found out the hard way

 

[Sam Spade]

THANKS FOR THE QUICK REPLIES!

Well, I'll let you know how the magnet cementing goes because I just made my repair an hour ago! Used a marble tile from Home Depot as my base, put aluminum HVAC sealing tape upside down on top of the tile, while taping down the ends with other pieces of the same tape. This stuff is sticky as all get out. Lined up the long edges of the good magnet and the long broken piece. Placed the small broken piece with correct alignment and the backing tape held everything in place correctly. Lifted off the small piece, placed a bead of JBWeld along the broken edge, and placed the small piece back in place against the other two magnets. Everything is holding so far, but I'll let it dry for 24 hours.

Dougie, you are absolutely right about "diminishing returns", but I've been doing stuff like this when I was still in diapers. Later on it got worse and I got myself an engineering degree. As my buddy the auto trim shop owner says, if you help with the work, you get charged extra; if you are an engineer, you get charged even more. But concerning this ceramic magnet repair, I really want to see if I can do it. The whole repair took 20 minutes.

EVEN IF THIS REPAIR IS SUCCESSFUL, I think I want to get replacement Alnico 2 magnets because, hey, as I wrote, that's what B.B. King's Lucille has, and I love his tone. So I guess that means I'll be acquiring a Varitone, too? Which I would make by myself from scratch.

I am still learning, but the style I would like to emulate would be Americana or Roots Rock, whatever they call it. From Chuck Berry to Dylan to the Beatles to the Stones to the Byrds to Neil Young to Springsteen to Freedy Johnston and to the stuff my friends who play in these type bands play. No metal, nothing too heavy, I don't even want to know what the word "shred" means.

SO IF ANYBODY CAN SUGGEST AN APPROPRIATE MAGNET, please do so. All I know is ceramic (whatever that means, I have no idea how to identify mine beyond that), Alnico 2 and Alnico 5. Now I find out there's 3, 4, 6, and 8???

 

[captcoolaid]

When a Ceramic mag breaks you end uip with a brittle sound. I have never had luck peicing them back together. It is not that they repel themselves but you end with pieces missing and a broken magnetic field. Do you need a Ceramic. I have an ass load of them or did you need a different type. Let me know. The only ones i am running low on are A5.

 

[SKATTERBRANE]

THANKS FOR THE QUICK REPLIES!

I've been doing stuff like this when I was still in diapers.

So since Thursday then?

 

[Dougie]

Well Mr. Spade... I can see by your dilligence (some ppl have other words for that, and funny they are, but...) that not only are you hard headed, you are an accredited hard head. And I say that in the best sense of the term, it's not a put down at all.

My dad HATED buying me toys because I would take them apart just to see what made them work. Eventually I learned to put them back together but not fast enough to suit him. And my Mom said I would argue the horns off a billy goat, so welcome to the real world I guess?

Now that your magnet is in one piece (or so we think) take a common boy scout's compass and wave over it end to end and see how many times the needle changes. The compass will show you polar orientation of the pieces you glued back together.

There is one common denominator for all the musical tastes and artists you listed. A LOT of that music was recorded with PAF style pickups, vintage P90 pickups, none of which had ceramic magnets or alnico 8, so I think it's safe to say you would find your best loved tones between alnico 2 and alnico 5 magnets.

Playing Chuck Berry style double string slides will get you this meaty chewy grainy textured mids with alnico 2. 5 doesn't get it. 5 is cleaner, but more clear bottom and top, less scooped mids and NONE of that chewy goodness that you hear when Albert King lays into the double string chops in "The High Cost Of Love."

You want old 5 string Stones? Alnico 2 in a neck mounted PAF is your friend. Play enough of the A2 and A5 PAF clones to develop a descerning ear between the two magnets and you will gravitate to the one you like the most. I love the tone and texture of A2, and I only use A5 when A2 isn't enough.

 

[Sam Spade]

So since Thursday then?

@SKATTERBRANE: I drive a late-model Buick in excellent condition. If you don't understand the significance of that as pertains to age, you haven't been driving very long.

 

[Sam Spade]

Well Mr. Spade... I can see by your dilligence (some ppl have other words for that, and funny they are, but...) that not only are you hard headed, you are an accredited hard head. And I say that in the best sense of the term, it's not a put down at all.

I've never been called "accredited" before. "Certifiable", yet, but never "accredited".

Okay, everybody laugh. JB Weld does not work. My JB Weld ceramic magnet repair looked absolutely great for about five minutes. Then the magnet somehow fell a whole half-inch and busted again. (Applause, please.) So I gave it a whirl. And, as I recall from (my own) days of (hands-on) yore, white glue, yellow glue and Crazy Glue aren't going to work either. Yeah, new magnets are cheap.

You've got me sold on Alnico 2.

I've also got a dead pickup around here that I'm going to try rewinding. Just to see if I can.

Love the toy stories. I know that one first hand. As this is the old family home, I've got drawers of where-did-these-come-from parts. Not including what's in the garage. Never even bothered putting the sides back on the computer that I actually use, the one I'm typing this on. Had a '94 Dodge Spirit up on blocks in the driveway for a good year. Dad wasn't the problem as to putting it back together in a timely manner. No, it was the combination of Code Enforcement and the City Attorney that was the problem. Kept that car too, although now just a cheap spare, simply because I had so much fun fixing it down through the years.