Brands with lacquer most similar to 50's/60's Gibson

[sumitagarwal]

So at this point I've had 1980's-2000's Gibsons, multiple Heritage's that I've had since the 1990's, 10 Orville by Gibsons (7 of them "reissue" models with fret-edge binding), etc and through them all I have exactly one guitar that has ever shown any meaningful finish checking, and that's my early Fender Road Worn Strat. And in terms of wear and tear they don't show much either (again, the Road Worn is picking up additional wear by far the fastest).

Living in NYC and not being particularly kind to my guitars I really wouldn't expect this if the nitro was really anything like the old stuff.

I don't especially care for the out-of-the-box "been in the trenches" look, but I do want my guitars to age along with me and to visually reflect the time that I've spent with them.

A long intro to: who makes guitars with the most old-school nitro finish?

If you'd rank them, how would you go?

Just throwing out some names I've seen mentioned a lot:

1. Gibson Murphy Lab
2. Gibson True Historic
3. ESP Navigator
4. Bartlett
5. Nik Huber
6. Heritage
7. Gibson Standard Production
8. Edwards All Lacquer series
9. Orville by Gibson
10. Greco

 

[sgarnett]

The idea that the finish SHOULD degrade over time is pretty new (and not my cup of tea, but that’s not the point). In general, companies are more concerned about about keeping their warranty repair cost down.

What I don’t like about modern lacquer, at least on US-made guitars, is how soft it is (and stays).

However, I have a recent made-in-Japan Gretsch 6120 Smoke. Its lacquer feels more genuine. I do my best to AVOID aging the guitar, so I can’t comment in that regard, but at least it doesn’t feel like a butterfly would leave footprints or get stuck. A harder finish is more likely to check though ….

 

[sumitagarwal]

The idea that the finish SHOULD degrade over time is pretty new (and not my cup of tea, but that’s not the point). In general, companies are more concerned about about keeping their warranty repair cost down.

What I don’t like about modern lacquer, at least on US-made guitars, is how soft it is (and stays).

However, I have a recent made-in-Japan Gretsch 6120 Smoke. It’s lacquer feels more genuine. I do my best to AVOID aging the guitar, so I can’t comment in that regard, but at least it doesn’t feel like a butterfly would leave footprints or get stuck. A harder finish is more likely to check though ….

Yup, totally get that. Some of the more humorous (to me) threads are around the warranty claims on Gibson True Historics/etc where they're beat to $#!^ from the factory, but then once in hand they continue to flake and "age" in non-traditional ways. Poor Gibson is trying to toe this impossible line of formulating something that will age 50 years in a few days when in the factory, but then reach "correct" stability as soon as it's sold. FWIW, the Artisan Aged guitars that Heritage are now making just look bad to me.

I'm much more in the middle camp where I don't want something to be beat up for me, but I also don't especially see greater beauty in something shiny and new.

To me it's like the difference between nickel hardware (even well-cared for nickel) versus chrome hardware, but that difference applied to the whole guitar. I much prefer the warmth and subtle accumulated texture of the nickel.

 

[sumitagarwal]

Ok, just to add some detail on what I'm seeing about Navigator: lacquer on models above 280. Around 2000 or 2001 the lacquer got more accurate, but in 2005+ they added silica to reduce the gloss, and the silica scratches differently

 

[Roxy13]

I have an Edwards PM that has all kinds of checking on the back although not really on the top for some reason.

 

[Wes T]

Yup, totally get that. Some of the more humorous (to me) threads are around the warranty claims on Gibson True Historics/etc where they're beat to $#!^ from the factory, but then once in hand they continue to flake and "age" in non-traditional ways. Poor Gibson is trying to toe this impossible line of formulating something that will age 50 years in a few days when in the factory, but then reach "correct" stability as soon as it's sold. FWIW, the Artisan Aged guitars that Heritage are now making just look bad to me.

I'm much more in the middle camp where I don't want something to be beat up for me, but I also don't especially see greater beauty in something shiny and new.

To me it's like the difference between nickel hardware (even well-cared for nickel) versus chrome hardware, but that difference applied to the whole guitar. I much prefer the warmth and subtle accumulated texture of the nickel.

Pretty funny how folks will pay more to have their guitar scratched up at the factory, but seriously downgrade the value of anything that has natural player wear on it.

 

[56lp]

Not necessarily "Old School Nitro Lacquer", but Lacquer finished MIJ guitars:

The Higher end:

Crews
Tokai
Epiphone LQ Series (2005-07)
Greco (as you mentioned)
Navigator (as you mentioned)

I have have/had one or more of each Brand/Model, of these Lacquer finished MIJ guitars.

 

[sumitagarwal]

I have an Edwards PM that has all kinds of checking on the back although not really on the top for some reason.

I've noticed this a bit too, even on some very old guitars. I suspect a combination of 1) mahogany expanding and contracting more than maple, and 2) thicker top finishes built up and sanded down while trying to achieve a pattern like a burst rather than the simpler back finishes

Pretty funny how folks will pay more to have their guitar scratched up at the factory, but seriously downgrade the value of anything that has natural player wear on it.

I feel like good honest play wear gets a reasonable evaluation, but then there's a big gap in value between mint and a guitar that has one or two conspicuous blems. Stuff that's be obviously abused or artificially aged by the previous owner gets devalued... as it should!

Not necessarily "Old School Nitro Lacquer", but Lacquer finished MIJ guitars:

The Higher end:

Crews
Tokai
Epiphone LQ Series (2005-07)
Greco (as you mentioned)
Navigator (as you mentioned)

I have have/had one or more of each Brand/Model, of these Lacquer finished MIJ guitars.

I feel skeptical about a lot of the newer Japan nitro. As I understand it the later Grecos and the Epiphone LQ were made at Fujigen, as were roughly half of my Orville by Gibsons (top of the catalogue models that are widely listed as nitro). They're completely impervious to acetone. Just to make sure there wasn't something wrong with my acetone I tested a cavity in one of my Heritage's, and it came off right away.

 

[ARandall]

Essentially the answer is 'none'.
Between all factory brands its like there is a cluster of results loosely spread 'a long way away' from being close. The minute variances between them doesn't change the fact that they are all nowhere near.

 

[brokentoeswalker]

Ive heard that Bartlett gets his nitro made to a special old formula from the 50's but that could just be a fishing story. I actually prefer the non checking nitro.

 

[sumitagarwal]

Essentially the answer is 'none'.
Between all factory brands its like there is a cluster of results loosely spread 'a long way away' from being close. The minute variances between them doesn't change the fact that they are all nowhere near.

Thanks. Maybe the rephrase: instead of targeting a specific formula, which brands use nitro lacquer that actually checks with heat and humidity changes (as that seems to be the bigger difference, compared to the old stuff).

As far as the variations between companies, would it be fair to say that if acetone doesn't dissolve it then it's not nitrocellulose lacquer? My understanding is that by definitely nitrocellulose lacquer is resin deposited via an acetone solvent, and so acetone must always be able to dissolve it.

 

[sgarnett]

Pretty funny how folks will pay more to have their guitar scratched up at the factory, but seriously downgrade the value of anything that has natural player wear on it.

Frankly, I would only pay LESS for factory OR player wear, but of the two, I would penalize honest wear less.

Not trying to bash relics or the people who like them. I’m just saying that not everyone wants a relic or a rapidly-aging finish, so it is difficult to spec a vintage-style instrument for broadest appeal.

I’m an engineer, and have worked in product development for 32 years (not in the music industry). If everyone wanted the same thing, and was willing to pay for it, my life would be much easier. IF a frog had wings, it wouldn’t bump its butt on the ground, BUT it doesn’t….

 

[sumitagarwal]

A little more fun-with-acetone and two more data points, including a Japanese one.

1) My Fender Road Worn body (Mexico) reacted immediately and is definitely nitro. Also interesting that it has so much checking on the body, which it did not have when I bought it. I like how subtle the checking is, you have to look for it but once you realize it's there it's like a texture hanging out just under the surface. Absolutely the opposite of Heritage Artisan Aged "checking"

2) The Japan Allparts nitro neck I have on that Strat reacted to the acetone and seems to clearly be nitro

So far that means the Orville by Gibsons are the only supposedly nitro things I've tested that have not reacted to the acetone.

 

[Eigen]

From the MIJ guitars I've played, I think the late 70s/early 80s nitro Tokai's are the closest in feel to the old Gibson's with that glassy feeling thin nitro, closer to those old guitars than the Gibson RI's as well, however, they are closer in age also so not really fair.

 

[soliloquy]

kind of surprised no one has mentioned Eastman yet. They do both varnish (for classical instruments, they feel different), and also nitro finish too. Maybach is another brand that sells checked/scored nitro finished guitars

This topic is of great interest to me, as I TOO want my guitars to age with me. If I'm passing a guitar down, i want it to show all forms of checking/scoring etc.

I was kind of thinking of getting a PG kits, finishing it in nitro, and artificially aging it via an aircan and hot air gun. though not sure if its worth doing that to a gibson and repainting it, and abusing the nitro finish to my liking.

 

[soliloquy]

kind of surprised no one has mentioned Eastman and Maybach yet. They do both varnish (for classical instruments, they feel different), and also nitro finish too. Maybach also comes with aged finish too.

This topic is of great interest to me, as I TOO want my guitars to age with me. If I'm passing a guitar down, i want it to show all forms of checking/scoring etc.

I was kind of thinking of getting a PG kits, finishing it in nitro, and artificially aging it via an aircan and hot air gun. though not sure if its worth doing that to a gibson and repainting it, and abusing the nitro finish to my liking.

 

[sumitagarwal]

kind of surprised no one has mentioned Eastman yet. They do both varnish (for classical instruments, they feel different), and also nitro finish too.

This topic is of great interest to me, as I TOO want my guitars to age with me. If I'm passing a guitar down, i want it to show all forms of checking/scoring etc.

I was kind of thinking of getting a PG kits, finishing it in nitro, and artificially aging it via an aircan and hot air gun. though not sure if its worth doing that to a gibson and repainting it, and abusing the nitro finish to my liking.

Ah, yes, Eastman! Funny they don't get talked about more for solid bodies.

So far I'm worried this conversation is going to find me selling off my Orville by Gibsons, and buying a long-tenon Heritage, Navigator, old Tokai, or Eastman...

 

[ARandall]

All nitro will eventually check with age....and yellow. Its just that the more brittle stuff will typically do that quite quickly, and the old dyes fade quickly too.
Funnily enough I built a V which I sprayed with 'Instrument Lacquer' that supposedly is more flexible.....it has a LOT of checking over the entire guitar after 4 years

 

[sumitagarwal]

All nitro will eventually check with age....and yellow. Its just that the more brittle stuff will typically do that quite quickly, and the old dyes fade quickly too.
Funnily enough I built a V which I sprayed with 'Instrument Lacquer' that supposedly is more flexible.....it has a LOT of checking over the entire guitar after 4 years

That's interesting. One of my Heritages is a translucent black H-535 from 1999. Like I said, no checking, but the binding and all has become so incredibly yellow.

In my opinion that's what makes old Les Paul Customs look so badass and beautiful. The combination of deeply yellowed thick binding with lingering golden tones in the hardware is such a killer but nuanced and layered look.

 

[ARandall]

Environment is just as important too. I have a 75 Custom that only has checking on the fret end areas, and an 80 Deluxe with no checking - but in both cases the paint is starting to wear down to wood on parts of the neck edge.
Seemingly no rhyme or reason when both of these guitars have been stored in the same room as the V, and for longer too.