BOTB reissues....

[delawaregold]

are you saying one of the botb's is braz? documented?

Yes, No.

 

[weirdotis]

Yes, No.

Wow, very cool!

How can that be "verified" though?

 

[delawaregold]

Well, it can’t.
Knowing the Dealer, and the owner, that’s enough for me.
I understand that for 98% of the people out there, that’s not enough.

 

[Mike60]

Yes, No.

multiple choice quiz?

 

[JimmyAce2006]

If it isn't documented, I would not pay more for it, nor should it be advertised as braz IMO. Prospective buyers should consider it to not have braz when formulating a price IMO.

 

[landguitar]

OK, I'm a newbie here, and not nearly as well educated as many here on Les Pauls, although I will say that my first 3 guitars, many years ago, were LP's, so I'm an original LP player! I still have my 1976 TB LP. Have strayed from the fold with PRS' and Andersons since, but am back to LP's and just a "baby" aficionado now with a 50th Anniv. 1956 RI (birth year) and a 50th Anniv. 1959 RI quilt top, plus (yes, heresy) a Limited Edition Robot - it's cool no matter what others might say! Looked hard at the CC Melvyn Franks, even played a couple, but an unexpected expense got in the way.

These BOTB's intrigue me. I am considering attending the Dallas show next April, and this is just the kind of thing I might be looking for, and am trying to estimate how much my budget needs to be to walk in the door. Are these the kind of guitars that folks might actually bring to Dallas to sell? A quick Google shows none on eBay, etc., for obvious reasons I guess. My original intent was to try and find a nice Gold Top, maybe a R7 or R8, with an unusually slim neck, but these BOTB's - wow.

Suggestions, thoughts?
Thanks much!

 

[Nevin1985]

Well, it can’t.
Knowing the Dealer, and the owner, that’s enough for me.
I understand that for 98% of the people out there, that’s not enough.

Hmm, yet if some random member comes here with a guitar they claim to have a Brazilian fretboard, they will get shot down.

 

[delawaregold]

Hmm, yet if some random member comes here with a guitar they claim to have a Brazilian fretboard, they will get shot down.

Yes, absolutly.
These are not random members.

 

[weirdotis]

Well, it can’t.
Knowing the Dealer, and the owner, that’s enough for me.
I understand that for 98% of the people out there, that’s not enough.

I understand about knowing the dealer.

I honestly don't know about me being in a position of buying an undocumented braz- it is a large amount of cash, and for me (or whoever buys is), the dealer's word may be good, but not for the person who buys the guitar further down the line.

Very interesting, nonetheless.

 

[delawaregold]

It is a BOTB, and as such has value in it's own right.
Regardless of what the freatboard material may be, it is one of maybe 30,
although I have really only seen 6 or 7 in the past 5 years. Three years
ago, these were bringing 15K. Granted that was then, in what is today a
very different market. I happen to believe that this one was made with
Brazilian, and for a guitar that already has a big number attached to it.
This one would be worth paying top dollar for, documented or not. (IMHO)
It is a moot point, the guitar to my knowledge isn't for sale at any price.

 

[uburoibob]

And keep in mind that low production numbers, in themselves, don't constitute a high price. If that were the case, prewar blonde non cut Super 400s would be going for over a million bucks. Heck, there were only 7 made. Only a market keeps the prices up - not the construction or scarcity.

That said, there are people who believe Braz boards and/or BOTB guitars will forever hold their value. But only if there is demand, and it's market that drives demand. And it's posts on this and the other LP forum, right now, that drives the demand and thus the market. Think about it - where else would you find out anything about these guitars? A bit precarious for my money...

Just playing devil's advocate when you see nothing but pretty cheerleaders...

Bob

 

[delawaregold]

And keep in mind that low production numbers, in themselves, don't constitute a high price. If that were the case, prewar blonde non cut Super 400s would be going for over a million bucks. Heck, there were only 7 made. Only a market keeps the prices up - not the construction or scarcity.

That said, there are people who believe Braz boards and/or BOTB guitars will forever hold their value. But only if there is demand, and it's market that drives demand. And it's posts on this and the other LP forum, right now, that drives the demand and thus the market. Think about it - where else would you find out anything about these guitars? A bit precarious for my money...

Just playing devil's advocate when you see nothing but pretty cheerleaders...

Bob

Bob,
Seven Brazilian Rosewood Les Pauls have sold in the last two months
to a Dealer / Collector in Australia, who has been asking me for my
opinion regarding a few of the guitars. He isn't a member of this, or
any American guitar Forum, and heard about me through a friend, who
is somewhat active here. The Guitars that don't meet his expectations,
when he gets them in hand, are then sold to a Dealer in Japan, who also
isn't a member of this or any American guitar Forum. I know it is your
opinion that this Forum, and the Les Paul Forum drive the marketplace
and prices of Les Paul guitars, but in actuality, that is just not the case.
The U.S. economy is in such decline, and has been for two years now,
that Germany, Australia, South Africa and Japan are the active markets
today, where these guitars are selling for their real value. The buyers in
those Countries are not members here, and are not at all influenced by
what is written here, they aren't even aware of it.
Brazilian Rosewood and Artist Model Les Pauls, if sold in the U.S. are
selling at a discount. The economy right now won't support the market,
regardless of demand.
I simply don't understand your "prewar blonde non cut Super 400s"
analogy. How do they compare to Les Pauls? If your talking prices of
blonde non cut Super 400s, then I'm sure those 7 top the list, but they
have no impact on the price, or desirability of the Les Paul Model. Just
as the Les Paul Model has no affect on blonde non cut Super 400s.
If someone is looking for a collectable Les Paul, and you offer them a
Super 400, they are not interested, at any price. If someone is interested
in a Super 400, and you offer them a Les Paul, they are not interested,
at any price. If something is rare, but not desirable, is doesn't command
a premium price. If something is rare and desirable it does.
Now, if you are trying to say that this, or any guitar Forum drives a
guitars desirability. You are completely backwards. The guitars
desirability drives the demand for this Forum. If the guitar wasn't popular
and already had a following, and a demand, there would be no interest in
this Forum. This, and all Forums, are just barometers of the existing market.
A Barometer doesn't predict the weather because it's measurements create
the weather. It predicts the weather because the weather creates it's
measurements.

 

[pinefd]

Wow, Artie, that actually made a lot of sense!


Frank

 

[Walman]

Be grateful that you are even discussing the purchase of one with its owner. Set your price mentally and don't go above it, just like when one goes to a Sotheby's auction.

I wish you the best of luck for this would be an awesome addition to any collection.

Thanks I appreciate it. We have agreed on the price and it is a Perryburst, I have seen the pictures and it looks genuine I am just waiting for the pictures of the BOTB certificate and we're ready to go. I will keep you updated.

 

[Walman]

Mark,
If I was Selling...$11,000
If I was Buying...$8,500
(Has to be complete, all the certs.)
Unless it's BMU's Brazilian.That's got to be worth more.

I agreed with the owner on $12,500 and its the Perryburst one. I tried to offer lower but the owner simply wouldn't accept. That was the absolute highest I would go. I have seen the pictures of the guitar and it looks great but he is looking for the BOTB certificate which is a must and until I see a picture of this I cannot go ahead. If he fails to find this what would you pay in your head, sorry to ask a difficult question, and do you think Gibson would issue another certificate if the guitar was sent to them for verification? I only ask because I know there is a great deal of controversy around these guitars. Thanks for trying to put a figure on these, very brave and much appreciated. Also, when you say all the certificates, do you mean there was more than one I should be asking for?

 

[delawaregold]

Since it is a Historic Reissue, it should have the Custom Shop COA,
It has the BOTB Certificate, and I'm not sure, but usually when Murphy
ages a guitar, there is a certificate that Tom signs. I'm not sure the
BOTB's came with the Murphy Cert, perhaps Frank will let us know.
Honestly, for me, not having the BOTB Cert is a deal breaker.
(That's just me) For 12.5K, I want it all.
I don't know if Gibson would re-certify the guitar or not. You can't
even get them to talk about the BOTB Reissue Guitars these days.
At the very least, it means sending the guitar to Nashville. Unless
you hand carry it, that means two chances for UPX or FedUps to
break the headstock.
You should post pictures here of the guitar.

 

[pinefd]

...and do you think Gibson would issue another certificate if the guitar was sent to them for verification?

Gibson won't even acknowledge the existence of this run of guitars now (from what I'm told), so I doubt they'd be willing...or interested in issuing you another certificate.


Frank

 

[delawaregold]

Those were specially Lithographed Certificates. I can't see
Rick, Edwin, or Mike having a few extra in a draw, "just in case"
someone needs one. Knowing Gibson, I'm sure if there were
any extra, Legal had them burned.

 

[LPCollector]

Artie, my number was $15k.........

 

[LPCollector]

Just playing devil's advocate when you see nothing but pretty cheerleaders...

Bob

Devil's advocate is not the term I used when I read that post.