BCRGreg is right- All a-posed dead wrong/dead weight!

[homenote]

Greg was spot on when he said,

"Mass absorbs vibration until it can vibrate. That has an effect of "tone".

I removed the Grovers on my rist Workhorse and put TonePros Klusons on. Big improvement in response, sustain and hang.

I have always supported the idea of lighter tuners. I feel that the heavier Grovers and Schallers reduce harmonics and overtones."

I made the change today on my Les Paul and EVERYTHING he said is 100% true. It's not subjective or just an opinion but a spot on FACT!
The only thing I guess would vary as far as the end result would be the quality
of guitar you are playing to begin with. If you are starting of with a quality foundation then the lighter
tuners will only improve your tone period!(fact) If not then perhaps the tone coloring/hiding "focused sounding" heavy grovers and alike would be a better fit. I have found 50% more natural tones and effects that I can completely controll with some basic motor skills and volume/tone nob dialing to
choose from. And yes if I want more focused tone/notes I can now simply dial it in with the controls on the guitar that were made for doing just that!

"All replica and vintage guitar owners a must try!"(Tonepros Klusons") all others I don't know.

 

[Benjammin]

I hope this doesn't turn into a sh*t-storm of hate, but I agree tuner mass makes a noticeable difference, I happen to like Grovers though

 

[homenote]

I hope this doesn't turn into a sh*t-storm of hate, but I agree tuner mass makes a noticeable difference, I happen to like Grovers though

Might I ask why you prefer them and what guitars you use them on? Just curious.

 

[BrianGT]

I onced changed the PRS tuners on my Mcarty to Klusons and the difference was unbelievable!
This was back in the late 90's.....the guitar just resonated so much better.

 

[Benjammin]

Might I ask why you prefer them and what guitars you use them on? Just curious.

I have them on my LP and SG. Honestly I dont know what it is about them I like sonically, but I have had different tuners on several of my guitars, threw different sets I always noticed subtle changes, and eventually just grew to prefer Grovers.

I guess with the Klusons, the tone is more "open", with with Grovers theres a "tightness" and for the heavier blues/rock style I go for, that suits me. I do think these differences are really most noticable to the player who is in physical contact with the guitar and its vibrations, but if its something that can be heard thru recordings, alot of my favorite Gibson players/tones were associated with Grovers (Clapton, Page, Green, etc)

On one hand, lower mass metal absorbs the vibrations better, which leads to things like sustain, but conversely, if the mass is dense enough, the vibrations bounce right off and carry on through the strings and wood, which leads to enhances sustain. With guitars you find alot of low mass bridges that boast sustain, but in the world of bass, there are alot of high mass bridges that boats sustain, and from my experiences both do. Its up to the player to try all the options to learn which they prefer (assuming people can even pick up these sublties, which not everyone can I dont think)

 

[Mookakian]

I find matched with a good light weight tailpiece as well, you feel more sustain and definition is a little better with light-weight tuners, on most solid body guitars. Agreed

 

[D_Strasse]

Greg was spot on when he said,

"Mass absorbs vibration until it can vibrate. That has an effect of "tone".

I don't want to be "that" guy but technically mass doesn't absorb vibration it simply alters the natural harmonics.

Just saying.

 

[MrRhoads]

I just like to add that "Density" also has a great impact on things.
If you have the Lord of the rings extra material look at the part on were they talk about how they made a ring that could bounce the least.
Density played a big role in the making of that ring, try youtube also it might be there.
(Yes i'm serious)

 

[homenote]

I don't know guys. Grovers enhancing sustain, more rock and roll or bluesy sounding?

How's this for sustain, natural harmonics and overtones? Sounds like blues and rock and roll to me.

[ame=http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2_12Ler9B8]YouTube - 1959 Les Paul & Trainwreck Amp - "Can You Hear It Ring?"[/ame]

 

[Barber]

I'm not saying either one is better or worse.

they might be different,

but the glen kuykendall video might have something to do with a few other things than just the tuners:

1/ Glen is a badass.
2/ He has a 1959 Les paul
3/ He has a trainwreck
4/ He plays it loud,

but I don't think the tuners play a large part in his sound.

 

[Benjammin]

I don't know guys. Grovers enhancing sustain, more rock and roll or bluesy sounding?

What I said is for my style of blues/rock I find Grovers desireable. I hope you aren't going to start saying your experience is the only one that counts, because I would argue that

How's this for sustain?

YouTube - 1959 Les Paul & Trainwreck Amp - "Can You Hear It Ring?"

I can get that sustain on any of my guitars with any of my tuners, that really demonstrates nothing to me

 

[Benjammin]

but I don't think the tuners play a large part in his sound.

very true, I just maintain there is a noticeable difference. In the last thread about tuners (where the reference to Greg comes from) alot of people wouldnt accept that much

 

[homenote]

I'm not saying either one is better or worse.

they might be different,

but the glen kuykendall video might have something to do with a few other things than just the tuners:

1/ Glen is a badass.
2/ He has a 1959 Les paul
3/ He has a trainwreck
4/ He plays it loud,

but I don't think the tuners play a large part in his sound.

Agreed 1-4.

But this is my point, I am no were near the badass as Glen but I have almost the exact same set
up/guitar and rig and it was the change out of the tuners that DID make the difference in final tone. Better? Um yes it's better to me.

 

[homenote]

So why is it widely accepted that a lighter weight stoptail and bridge is recommended for "Optimal Tone" on a solid body guitar? Why can't the same concept be applied on this debate? Or at the least the different typs of tones? Of course we all are diffent on what we like but tone is not subjective "good tone" is.

Also with the romantics my tone was more focused sounding(but lacking many natural sounds and characteristics of the woods) but with the klusons it's open OR focused sounding(best of both worlds) pending on what I dial in with my guitars controls.(50s wiring.) A bigger pallet to choose from.
.... "That's the fact Jack"

Just want to conclude the tuners play a bigger roll on the changes and what they are. Just as we did on lighter bridges and stoptails. My point is it's more factual than a opinion or preference.

 

[D_Strasse]

So why is it widely accepted that a lighter weight stoptail and bridge is recommended for "Optimal Tone" on a solid body guitar? Why can't the same concept be applied on this debate? Or at the least the different typs of tones? Of course we all are diffent on what we like but tone is not subjective "good tone" is.

Just want to conclude the tuners play a bigger roll on the changes and what they are. Just as we did on lighter bridges and stoptails. My point is it's more factual than a opinion or preference.

Not to get too technical but really it has a lot to do with natural frequencies and as well as canceling or adding to that.

Possibly in the case of a stoptail it is mounted off the body and added weight there can cancel vibration, i.e. the weight of the stop body not moving in tandem with the body and the mounting bolts acting as the springs. this is in contrast to the tuner which is mounted to the end to the neck while the neck acts as the spring.

This can get REAL technical and into the weeds really quick and at the end of the day it doesn't really matter. Experiment with everything and stick with what you like because unlike precision made steel springs, wood is highly varied, density to actual sizing, so what works for one instrument might not be ooptimal for another. It's not like anyone is actually going to do harmonic testing on their gibby, or rather almost anyone. (Prolly a few crazy SOBs will do it I guess cause their's always someone)

 

[Benjammin]

So why is it widely accepted that a lighter weight stoptail and bridge is recommended for "Optimal Tone" on a solid body guitar? Why can't the same concept be applied on this debate? Or at the least the different typs of tones? Of course we all are diffent on what we like but tone is not subjective "good tone" is.

Also with the romantics my tone was more focused sounding(but lacking many natural sounds and characteristics of the woods) but with the klusons it's open OR focused sounding(best of both worlds) pending on what I dial in with my guitars controls.(50s wiring.) A bigger pallet to choose from.
.... "That's the fact Jack"

Just want to conclude the tuners play a bigger roll on the changes and what they are. Just as we did on lighter bridges and stoptails. My point is it's more factual than a opinion or preference.

The topic doesnt come up as much in guitar circles, though I know at least one member on MLP who prefers a high mass bridge on his LP. It does come up alot more in bass circles, one of the most common bridge upgrades on Fender basses is the Quan Badass high mass bridge. I have one on my Jazz bass and it has better sustain than any of my other instruments. The Squier Classic Vibe series have a nice quality high mass bridge with brass saddles, which is what contributes the most to the high quality of that CV line

High Mass Bridges vs. Vintage Bridges - TalkBass Forums

 

[homenote]

Not to get too technical but really it has a lot to do with natural frequencies and as well as canceling or adding to that.

Possibly in the case of a stoptail it is mounted off the body and added weight there can cancel vibration, i.e. the weight of the stop body not moving in tandem with the body and the mounting bolts acting as the springs. this is in contrast to the tuner which is mounted to the end to the neck while the neck acts as the spring.

This can get REAL technical and into the weeds really quick and at the end of the day it doesn't really matter. Experiment with everything and stick with what you like because unlike precision made steel springs, wood is highly varied, density to actual sizing, so what works for one instrument might not be ooptimal for another. It's not like anyone is actually going to do harmonic testing on their gibby, or rather almost anyone. (Prolly a few crazy SOBs will
do it I guess cause their's always someone)

Or maybe people in the buiz(Leo Fender?)

 

[nicolasrivera]

I onced changed the PRS tuners on my Mcarty to Klusons and the difference was unbelievable!
This was back in the late 90's.....the guitar just resonated so much better.

Mmm but that MCarty does come with Kluson like tuners right, i thought they where Klusons.

 

[nicolasrivera]

I don't know guys. Grovers enhancing sustain, more rock and roll or bluesy sounding?

How's this for sustain?

YouTube - 1959 Les Paul & Trainwreck Amp - "Can You Hear It Ring?"

Well, that loud and close to the speaker even an ukelele gets heavy sustain.

 

[D_Strasse]

Or maybe people in the buiz(Leo Fender?)

Haha - ya, those SOBs might just be crazy enough.