Balancing local budgets on the backs of the poorest

[geochem1st]

All one of the cops needed to do is POLITELY state that PDA is against the law in parks (if that is truly the case, and if it ISN'T he had no right to do or say a damned thing) and that it would be best if they stopped. Had they not, he could have simply given them a ticket, a fine and a chance to appear in courts, and be done with it. The witnesses all behaved exactly appropriately, and NONE of them broke any laws by expressing their protests.

We have no knowledge of what really happened with this video. It was made by a group that pushes the limits intentionally.... they had a film and sound crew there.... the guy in brown that slid and took down one protester wasn't even a cop but was cuffed himself.

Had this been a truly innocent couple I'd lay odds it would have gone down completely different.

 

[KSG_Standard]

That is the point here, and the only point. This thread wasn't created to knock cops but the system that sets up the abuse.

Did the abuse start with someone violating the law? Did the abuse have anything to do with people not taking care of tickets, court orders, etc., before the offenses became jailable offences? Should poor people be exempt from following the law and be exempt from the consequences of thier failure to follow the law? Do poor people have any responsibility to understand their own rights? Do they have any responsibility to learn to read in the public schools that are available to everyone?

 

[Mule Train]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ans7Khv9KAM&feature=related]Florida Highway Patrol Arrests Miami Police Officer Driving 120 Mph in His Squad Car - YouTube[/ame]

 

[SKATTERBRANE]

We have no knowledge of what really happened with this video. It was made by a group that pushes the limits intentionally.... they had a film and sound crew there.... the guy in brown that slid and took down one protester wasn't even a cop but was cuffed himself.

Had this been a truly innocent couple I'd lay odds it would have gone down completely different.

You are probably right.

 

[SKATTERBRANE]

Did the abuse start with someone violating the law? Did the abuse have anything to do with people not taking care of tickets, court orders, etc., before the offenses became jailable offences? Should poor people be exempt from following the law and be exempt from the consequences of thier failure to follow the law? Do poor people have any responsibility to understand their own rights? Do they have any responsibility to learn to read in the public schools that are available to everyone?

Yes even poor people have responsibility. Howver, private business should NEVER be alowed the incentive to jail people. It is a conflict of justice.

I consider your point valid as I do Geo's, but the two are not mutually exclusive. In fact they are only superficially related.

 

[Joeydego]

I am sure some are, my expectation would be that ALL would be. In fact I expect anyone to be smarter than I am, who have certain jobs or responsibilities.

Imagine how disappointed I am almost every minute of the day!

How much smarter than you would you like your local beat cop to be? Should his math be better? How about geology? Maybe we can get away with hiring good cops with weak geology. Smarter HOW? How about this? How about we continue to give our sworn officers the same background in LAW, because that's what they do, day in, day out. I promise you, even my most dense co worker will whip the average citizens ass in legal knowledge. Oh yea, and please, continue eroding benefits. I promise this will do NOTHING to attract SMARTER recruits. (Just figured I'd put the thread COMPLETELY in the shitter now. It was a good topic, until generalizations were made).

 

[SteveGangi]

Yes even poor people have responsibility. Howver, private business should NEVER be alowed the incentive to jail people. It is a conflict of justice.

I would have a very hard time trying to imagine a more obvious and potentially dangerous conflict of interest.

 

[Joeydego]

I would have a very hard time trying to imagine a more obvious and potentially dangerous conflict of interest.

Some states have privatized jails for a while now. I'm not terribly opposed to it, so long as its government sending them there and government held accountable if something goes wrong.

 

[geochem1st]

Some states have privatized jails for a while now. I'm not terribly opposed to it, so long as its government sending them there and government held accountable if something goes wrong.

No instead we have companies sending people to jail and fining them outlandishly without judicial oversight as to the fines. The penalties do not fit the offense. This isn't justice.

Is this hard to see KSG?

 

[Joeydego]

No instead we have companies sending people to jail and fining them outlandishly without judicial oversight as to the fines. The penalties do not fit the offense. This isn't justice.

Is this hard to see KSG?

Unacceptable. However, do you really think a rolling stop at a stop sign is worth a weeks worth of groceries? The fines are far too high, WITH government enforcement.

 

[SKATTERBRANE]

How much smarter than you would you like your local beat cop to be? Should his math be better? How about geology? Maybe we can get away with hiring good cops with weak geology. Smarter HOW? How about this? How about we continue to give our sworn officers the same background in LAW, because that's what they do, day in, day out. I promise you, even my most dense co worker will whip the average citizens ass in legal knowledge. Oh yea, and please, continue eroding benefits. I promise this will do NOTHING to attract SMARTER recruits. (Just figured I'd put the thread COMPLETELY in the shitter now. It was a good topic, until generalizations were made).

I should have used the word intelligent, rather than smarter (which implies knowledge). Waco is the epitome of many of law enforcement's mentality.

They are trained a certain way, yes? All Waco would have taken is TWO cops to take Koresh in. Just wait until he showed up somewhere where intelligence said he frequents. Have a warrant and escorted him to the police car.

There are far too many examples displays of rather unintelligent behavior by law enforcement. I expect them to be more intelligent than I am, all of them.

I have many times not been able to appeal to basic logic to cops. They are often stuck on procedure rather than independent thinking.

Of course I am sure that 99 time out of 100 they are exposed to the generally low I.Q. of the public.

A cop should have at LEAST a 120 I.Q. and have a certain psychological profile that does not include superiority complex or a bully mentality. They are public SERVANTS.

 

[SteveGangi]

Some states have privatized jails for a while now. I'm not terribly opposed to it, so long as its government sending them there and government held accountable if something goes wrong.

Court judging and court sentencing and constant in-house court/government oversight would be absolutely necessary. The company should have ZERO authority to add charges or time or "fees" or anything. That should stay the sole responsibility of the court.

Similarly, it should NOT be tied to any sort of "per capita" or "quota" or head count, or we will see more crooked companies bribing crooked judges. If it happens once (and it already has) it can happen again.

 

[KSG_Standard]

No instead we have companies sending people to jail and fining them outlandishly without judicial oversight as to the fines. The penalties do not fit the offense. This isn't justice.

Is this hard to see KSG?

If that's the case, then there's a problem. But, fines for offenses are set by judges...fees acessed by the private probation corporations are approved by legislation. Whether a criminal is considered indigent is a determination made by the judge. Whether to offer community service, fine or jail/probation/monitored release is a decision made by a judge. The PPC is carrying out the orders of the legislature and the judiciary.

Private probation allows counties and cities to have probation supervision without charging taxpayers for the cost of a government-run probation department. The private sector offers courts an option for monitoring the offender’s conditions of release without using a costly and scarce jail bed for a nonviolent offender. Private probation’s “offender pay” system recognizes that the offender, not the taxpayer, should be burdened with the cost of the crime that has been committed.

Probation company points to state's savings » Local News » Moultrie Observer

Are there abuses under this system? Apparently so. Should they be addressed and corrected? Absolutely. Did the NYT article present an unbiased story with all the facts? I doubt it.

 

[Rich]

I have many times not been able to appeal to basic logic to cops. They are often stuck on procedure rather than independent thinking.

Years ago, I used to work in retail sales and, if I learned nothing else from the experience, I did learn that people LIE. They will make up all sorts of bullshit to try to get an unrealistic price or even go so far as to scratch a floor model in the hope of getting a huge discount (never mind that the floor model isn't actually for sale since the product is in stock). After enough of this, I became very jaded and simply expected the worst from the vast majority of people who walked in the door. I'd still do my best to be a good, helpful sales person, but some days it was more difficult than others.

I would think that cops go through the same thing, but worse. After you've had enough people argue with you and try to get one past you, you become less patient when dealing with people; you do your best to do a good job, but sometimes you've heard enough when somebody starts lying to you when you clearly saw them break the law.

 

[geochem1st]

PPC's should not exist period. They are a clear conflict of interest.

 

[SteveGangi]

Years ago, I used to work in retail sales and, if I learned nothing else from the experience, I did learn that people LIE. They will make up all sorts of bullshit to try to get an unrealistic price or even go so far as to scratch a floor model in the hope of getting a huge discount (never mind that the floor model isn't actually for sale since the product is in stock). After enough of this, I became very jaded and simply expected the worst from the vast majority of people who walked in the door. I'd still do my best to be a good, helpful sales person, but some days it was more difficult than others.

I would think that cops go through the same thing, but worse. After you've had enough people argue with you and try to get one past you, you become less patient when dealing with people; you do your best to do a good job, but sometimes you've heard enough when somebody starts lying to you when you clearly saw them break the law.

They are government. Like it or not, if they do NOT follow procedure, that's their ass - even if they did use common sense or do what seems like the right thing.

The reason is, SOME people are professional fvck ups. They game the system from the inside. They learn that if they do fvck up monumentally they won't have to do that task - because management finds it easier to simply reassign the work. So what happens is everything is a procedure and everything is knocked down to the lowest possible denominator.

What happens then? The professional fvck ups continue to fvck up, protected by "the system" and get to retire "with honors". Meanwhile the good ones have to follow an impossible procedure "or else".

I understand SOME places even have a "procedure" for gassing up the car. Why? Professional fvck ups ruined it for everyone else.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

You are right, people are assholes. However an asshole should never be allowed to get a job as a cop.

Anarchy much?

I expect journalist, politicians and cops (and a whole list of others) to be much smarter than I am.

I prefer the bar set higher than that.

 

[Mule Train]

My food stamps were cut from 48.00 a month to 27.00. Many ways to balance the budget.

 

[SKATTERBRANE]

Years ago, I used to work in retail sales and, if I learned nothing else from the experience, I did learn that people LIE. They will make up all sorts of bullshit to try to get an unrealistic price or even go so far as to scratch a floor model in the hope of getting a huge discount (never mind that the floor model isn't actually for sale since the product is in stock). After enough of this, I became very jaded and simply expected the worst from the vast majority of people who walked in the door. I'd still do my best to be a good, helpful sales person, but some days it was more difficult than others.

I would think that cops go through the same thing, but worse. After you've had enough people argue with you and try to get one past you, you become less patient when dealing with people; you do your best to do a good job, but sometimes you've heard enough when somebody starts lying to you when you clearly saw them break the law.

Oh I can agree with this, also having worked retail and hospital security.

I guess we Libertarians work under the assumption that all people are logical, responsible and would never intentionally fvck with someone. I would probably make a very bad cop, lowlifes are not tolerated well by me.

And let's face it, humanity is elevated only by a small percentage of the population.

 

[SKATTERBRANE]

Anarchy much?



I prefer the bar set higher than that.

I am not sure how my not wanting assholes to get jobs as cops would lead to anarchy?

If you want the bar to be set even higher, okay then VERY much smarter than I am.