Audio VS. Linear

[Christophe]

Hey thanks, not bad, not bad at all

However, I disagree with you on this point. I don't think there's SUCH a difference between 50's wiring and modern wiring that would totally change the need for audio pot in vol:
http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/ton...onics-compilation-information.html#post881985

I totally understand that, between 50's and modern, there's a difference on the total tone effect, and especially on the interaction between tone and vol, but I don't think the vol principle change.

The fact that you put your low-pass filter (one) directly on the pickup output, or on the volume output, don't change the fact that the vol put is STILL controlling the % of total signal you get, and if you're using a log pot, then each step on your pot will correspond to your ears to doubling the volume.

Even if you put your filter on the volume output, and even if you're putting tone almost to 0, you're still getting the low part of the signal, and the volume pot is still controlling how much % of the signal you get. And even for low frequency signal, your ears are getting vol logarythmicly, not linearly.

And finally, even if it's nowhere near a proff, I'm personnaly using a 50's wiring, and I'm totally happy of the usable range of my audio vol pots.

So no, I don't see a scientific explanation for using linear pot for volume, whatever the wiring (50's or modern, standard or independent volumes).

But maybe I'm wrong, that's totally possible. But then, I would like to have good scientific explanation of why, especially concerning why it could be better to have a linear variation of volume when our ears are measuring volume logarythmicly.

 

[korus]

Yes, thanks, I think I know what pots are
http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/ton...onics-compilation-information.html#post882057

And I also agree with you that the effect is at the end the same, that the only thing that change is the behaviour you get when turning the pot.

If I understood it well, your "nonsense" is just based on your experience of using a log pot for tone on YOUR guitar, with YOUR pickups, in YOUR situation. And thus you extrapolate that what is good for you is the situation for "most people (~90% of overall population with regular hearing ability)"...
Is that right?

Well, ok, thanks for the explanation. I think it's easier to put your advice in context now...


Personnaly, I would still recommand for MORE theory than that, in order to make a decision, because I'm really not sure that what's fit you will fit me. And as I can understand people telling me what's fitting them, I'm a bit less trustful to people telling me that doing things different than them is "nonsense". No offence, of course.

I would still say that choosing log or lin for tone pot is really a matter of circonstance, you have to test with your guitar in your situation.
However, volume pot is NOT a "more complicated" matter, on the CONTRARY, it's a much easier matter, because science already answers this one (and I talk about REAL science here): human ear is percieving volume as log, so use a log if you want to have a usable pot at all (instead of a on/off switch).


No offence I hope.

First, no offence, definitely! I am not a schoolgirl with fragile ego. I do hope you're neither, as I used some a bit stronger words, and it was not my intention to offend.

Second, I do not extrapolate anything. I'll go very slowly this (last) time.

Let us say we have 2 completely identical guitars connected with 2 identical amps with identical settings. Except for a tiny little difference - the guitar A has 500k tone pot with AUDIO taper and the guitar B has 500k tone pot with LINEAR taper.

Now, while you are listening without watching him play (as a kind of blind test) someone plays guitar A with tone pot set to 10. Then he rolls tone pot to 9 without telling you and starts playing. If you are gifted (1 in 20 or 1 in 30 humans) you immidiately recognize the difference in guitar A tone.
The question is : if you want to hear the same tone on the guitar B at what setting it's LINEAR taper tone pot should be set at?

It is easy, it should be set at 5.

Now we can agree on :
1. guitar A with AUDIO taper tone pot has an usable tone pot range from 0 to 9
2. guitar B with LINEAR taper tone pot has an usable tone pot range from 0 to 5

Mind you, 1. and 2. are simple facts that are true whatever MY guitar is, MY pickups are and MY situation (signal chain?) is, since any of these were not used in making conclusion about simple facts at 1. and 2.

SO, if anyone in this world finds guitar B as the one that fits him/her more, I will be happy for him/her. BUT still I would not be able to find any trace of human common sense int that personal preference, hence I simply have to call it for what it is - nonsense.

As I wrote in the very begginig there is not any kind of extrapolation involved here. I think it is more some trivial math and a bit of common sense. And that is very simple reason why you'll almost never find a linear taper pot used as tone pot in a regular production electric guitar.
Maybe a very cheap ones, or repaired by a lousy tech.

BTW, the only production guitar having LINEAR taper pots as tone pots in my 30 years of guitar playing were those cheap lefthanded ones (e.g. Epi LP MIC) that had pot knobs printed in the opposite direction than regular righthanded pot caps, but no way they could justify reverse audio taper pots costs, so they just used linear taper for all 4 pots instead.

HTH

 

[FF_Pedals]

Christophe, do you have dependent or independent volumes? Maybe it's just independent volumes that need linear or superpots. Log is definitely wrong for my guitar that has 50s wiring with independent volumes. In this configuration the output always has 500k and the tone pot in parallel while the wiper controls the ratio of the pickup. When the volume is turned down the output 'sees' 500k. The impedance seen from the output varies as the volume increases, the pickup load varies from 500k to 500k in parallel with the pickup, lets say 10k so it now sees close to 10k. This changes the way the taper works and thus necessitates the need of a non-log pot.

 

[Christophe]

korus: no prob, no offense taken, I don't have a fragile ego either, and the goal here is to get a better understanding, so no problem at all

I think you didn't understood my answer, and I will put that on my part, english is not my primary langage, so it's my fault, I should have been clearer in my sentence.

I totally agree with your demonstration. However, it is totally based on ONE theory:

Now, MY theory/thesis : Most people (~90% of overall population with regular hearing ability) start to notice difference in highs when you turn AUDIO taper (LOGarithmic taper) used as a TONE pot in a guitar from 10 to 8 or even from 10 to 7. [end of theory/thesis]

1. guitar A with AUDIO taper tone pot has an usable tone pot range from 0 to 9
2. guitar B with LINEAR taper tone pot has an usable tone pot range from 0 to 5

And that is THIS theory that I think is wrong. Well, it's not even a real "theory", it's just your opinion about usable range of tone filter, based on your experience, and that you think applies to all.

This is YOUR theory, based on your sets. I really DO NOT think that, for every people, for every set, the usable part of a audio tone is only until 7, 8, or 9. I do really think that it depends. I do think that because, reading this forum and other, I have seen a LOT of different advices concerning tone pot.

First, you're talking only about people starting to notice "highs frequencies" differencies. But we can also talk about "lows frequencies" differencies. So this can play also on the LOW part of the "usable range". People starting to ear a difference only when tone pot reaching a specific level.

Then, you admitted yourself that this theory (about how much is the usable range for a audio tone pot) is only YOUR theory, based on YOUR set and YOUR playing. But I read a lot of different opinions about other peoples. Some that had audio pot, and whose usable range was so thin it was more like a switch than a pot (because low range was too near the high range). And then, using a linear pot was better, because the low range was then farther from the high range - which is the case if the low range is past the half of the 500k).

So really, I read so much different opinion, that I really think that defining the "usable range" of the tone filter is REALLY dependent of the person AND of its set.
Then, ONCE you found this range, then YES, you can make a choice about log or lin, to get the most pot range for this usable range.

I still haven't seen any THEORY about defining this range. The only thing I have seen, is people telling what is THEIR range. And you did exactly the same: you defined what is YOUR range.
So until someone give a SCIENTIFIC theory about usable range of the tone filter (which, moreover, will certainly depend of the wiring), then I think there's no NONSENSE using either log or lin for tone.


Finally, even if it's nowhere a proof, my Epi Les Paul MICz (which seems NOT to be "cheap") was, stock, with audio pot for vol, and lin pot for tone.


FF_Pedals: I got independents vols.
Moreover, it is my understanding that superpots are really much more like a log than a lin. It's a adapted log, adapted to the exact answer of human ears (which is similar to a log but not EXACTLY a log). But it's really NOT a linear.

Finally, I'm not sure about your reading of this. Even if pickup impedence is important, I think here you should see it more like a signal generator. It's not the amp that power the pickup, it's the pickup that generate a signal. And the vol pot still directly manage how much % of the pickup signal is send to the output. And how much % of the signal is send, it's exactly what our ears translate as "volume". So still, a log, or even better, a superpot, is really more adapted, because it will translate for our ears as "plus 1 on the pot" = "volume is double".

 

[tiedstick]

Where did you buy your pots?

eBay, Hoagland Brothers Co. if I remember correctly.


Wow...forget to check in on this thread in some time.

Superb info, learning so much here. Thanks!!!

Well, the pots have been installed. The Audios went in the volume position and the Linears went in the tone. To my ears, and as some of you guys were saying, the Linears are more like an ON-OFF switch. I can hear no difference as I roll back the tone until about 3. 3 to 0 is where any changes in tone shaping occur.

Like I said before, I use my tones in a 'set-it-and-forget-it' fashion. Unfortunatly, that area between 3 and 0 is just too small to work with, and I hardly ever keep my tones all the way up to 10.

The Audio pots in the volume on the other hand are fantastic. To my ears, very nice and smooth tapering from 10 down to mute.

So what am I gonna do about it? Nothing!...I have no money! But I'm pretty sure I will be swapping the Linears for some Audios sometime in the future. Even if the Linears were just a BIT more flexible, I'd keep them, but I'd like more control.

Thanks again everybody for the great information.

 

[korus]

Sometimes it's best to test it personally. But look here http://www.geofex.com/article_folders/potsecrets/pottaper.gif 3.3 on linear equals ~8.2 on audio (log).

So your 0-3.3 range from linear will be 0-8.2 on audio, as I've already shown in my previous posts in this thread. Glad if I helped a bit.

And please do try RS Superpots (not affiliated) as volumes if possible to see that audio pots are "too fast" for volumes.

 

[jonesy]

If you use 50's wiring, use the linear pots for volume.

I use all CTS audio taper pots for volume and tone in all my wiring harness's, you will get a smooth taper and even roll off that way.

I have found linear pots will roll off abuptly when used for volume pots, wether it is 50's or modern wiring.

Not sure where you are getting your info FFpedals but I diagree with a lot of the information I have seen you posting lately

 

[Splattle101]

I thought that 50s wiring had the volumes dependent. As in, if you turn one volume to zero while on the middle position, the volume will drop to zero regardless of the volume setting on the other pickup.

I know that they can be wired so they're independent, but it was my impression (right or wrong) that the historical wiring had them dependent.

 

[jonesy]

I thought that 50s wiring had the volumes dependent. As in, if you turn one volume to zero while on the middle position, the volume will drop to zero regardless of the volume setting on the other pickup.

I know that they can be wired so they're independent, but it was my impression (right or wrong) that the historical wiring had them dependent.

Normally they work just like you have posted Splat, (wired 50's or modern )when switch is in middle turning down one volume will turn everything down unless rewired to Independent volumes...

Independent wiring is achieved by "flip-flopping " switch and pu wires on the volume pots and does not have anything to do with 50's or modern wiring, actually you can wire it up either way.

 

[korus]

if tone pot/cap is connected to input of volume pot - modern wiring
if tone pot/cap is connected to output of volume pot - 50s wiring

if inputs are connected to outer lug - dependent wiring
if inputs are connected to wiper lug - independent wiring

so there are 2*2=4 options

1. modern dependent
2. 50s dependent
3. modern independent
4. 50s independent

I think it is rather simple, though it's just me.
I consider independent wirings as tone killers.
50's wiring is unpredictable for those who use volumes below 5 (I do).

So, for me, modern dependent it is. With optional treble bleeds. YMMV, that makes life interesting.

HTH

 

[ScottB]

On my other post where I was kicking around logging shunts, I mentioned something that might be relevant and I'd love to hear some speculation.

Is the impedence of the whole coil and volume control itself causing a linear tome control to act like a reverse log pot? Does this effect, if I haven't got it wrong, account for some of the preferences one way or the other?

 

[FF_Pedals]

I use all CTS audio taper pots for volume and tone in all my wiring harness's, you will get a smooth taper and even roll off that way.

I have found linear pots will roll off abuptly when used for volume pots, wether it is 50's or modern wiring.

Not sure where you are getting your info FFpedals but I diagree with a lot of the information I have seen you posting lately

I'm not getting my info anywhere other than around here and from playing my Les Paul.

I may have shit the bed on this one. There is something wrong with the audio taper pots I have though. I changed the pots and wiring at the same time so I'm not sure really what's causing it to mess up but it's got the on-off switch effect between 8-10 on the volume pots. One of them is from Alpha and the other is from ebay with no label. I'm just assuming Linear would work better for me. I've got new CTS pots coming so I should be all set up soon.

Please feel free to call me out on anything.

 

[ScottB]

I'm not getting my info anywhere other than around here and from playing my Les Paul.

I may have shit the bed on this one. There is something wrong with the audio taper pots I have though. I changed the pots and wiring at the same time so I'm not sure really what's causing it to mess up but it's got the on-off switch effect between 8-10 on the volume pots. One of them is from Alpha and the other is from ebay with no label. I'm just assuming Linear would work better for me. I've got new CTS pots coming so I should be all set up soon.

Please feel free to call me out on anything.

Could be if you reversed the wiring to the pots it would not only fix the rotation direction but it would also accomodate the log curve built into the pot (which is probably not symmetrical on the true log curve).

Sounds like you have a left hand audio taper pot wired into a righty guitar or else a right handed pot wired as a lefty. Just speculating.

 

[jonesy]

if tone pot/cap is connected to input of volume pot - modern wiring
if tone pot/cap is connected to output of volume pot - 50s wiring

if inputs are connected to outer lug - dependent wiring
if inputs are connected to wiper lug - independent wiring

so there are 2*2=4 options

1. modern dependent
2. 50s dependent
3. modern independent
4. 50s independent

I think it is rather simple, though it's just me.
I consider independent wirings as tone killers.
50's wiring is unpredictable for those who use volumes below 5 (I do).

So, for me, modern dependent it is. With optional treble bleeds. YMMV, that makes life interesting.

HTH

My 04' SG is wired up 50's dependent and even with the stock Gibson pots (Russian PIO .047's) both volume and tone controls roll off very evenly all the way from10-1

I had 06' Studio LP wired modern dependent with stock pots (no volume bleeds) and all controls tapered off nicely as well with no sudden cut-off.

Some guitars sound better one way or the other, seems to vary from guitar to guitar IMHO

 

[FF_Pedals]

Could be if you reversed the wiring to the pots it would not only fix the rotation direction but it would also accomodate the log curve built into the pot (which is probably not symmetrical on the true log curve).

Sounds like you have a left hand audio taper pot wired into a righty guitar or else a right handed pot wired as a lefty. Just speculating.

But doesn't a log taper have most of the variation in the upper end? I've double checked the wiring, it's 50's independent volume. The fact that one is push pull and the other regular helps as there are two different construction types which helps rule out the chance of having got lefty pots.

The pickups are GFS. I'm getting a new bridge pickup soon, we'll see what happens when I rewire everything.

Sorry if what I posted in this thread confuses anyone or pisses anyone off who's trying to sell pots. My responses are just based off of my experience with this one guitar with these particular parts. The problem could potentially be due to a cheap approximation to the log curve used in the import pots.

 

[KP]

I have 2 300K Linear Gibson pots and 2 CTS 250K Audio pots. After a bit more research; I set it up with the linears for volume and the audios for tone. Used Russian PIOs from Jonsey; a .022 for the neck and a .047 for the bridge. I am sure that many of you will find this to be an odd combination; but I am really liking it. Wish I could play better so I could give you tone clips. I guess my message is "Don't be afraid to try something new or unusual.".

 

[jonesy]

I have 2 300K Linear Gibson pots and 2 CTS 250K Audio pots. After a bit more research; I set it up with the linears for volume and the audios for tone. Used Russian PIOs from Jonsey; a .022 for the neck and a .047 for the bridge. I am sure that many of you will find this to be an odd combination; but I am really liking it. Wish I could play better so I could give you tone clips. I guess my message is "Don't be afraid to try something new or unusual.".

Nice to hear you are tinkering around and trying new things bro. So many people just "Talk" about stuff but don't really try things out. IMO that is the only way you will know what works for you A+

 

[FF_Pedals]

I have 2 300K Linear Gibson pots and 2 CTS 250K Audio pots. After a bit more research; I set it up with the linears for volume and the audios for tone. Used Russian PIOs from Jonsey; a .022 for the neck and a .047 for the bridge. I am sure that many of you will find this to be an odd combination; but I am really liking it. Wish I could play better so I could give you tone clips. I guess my message is "Don't be afraid to try something new or unusual.".

Sounds intriguing. What kind of guitar is it in? What kind of pickups?

 

[ScottB]

But doesn't a log taper have most of the variation in the upper end? I've double checked the wiring, it's 50's independent volume. The fact that one is push pull and the other regular helps as there are two different construction types which helps rule out the chance of having got lefty pots.

...

That's why I suggested maybe you have CCW (lefty) pots, but unless both pots came from the same source then I don't see much chance of two random leftys in one build. Curious.

 

[ScottB]

The more I think about this, you have independent wiring, yes?

Remember pointing out to me the impedence of the coil?

If you have the pot wired backwards, wouldn't this, in addition to the long vs short side of the audio "curve" make it work not only backwards but little better than a linear, maybe worse?

Can't rule out a wiring anomaly but I'm going to assume everything is correct.