Attenuators and amps with a master volume

[Tweaker]

Hey guys,

I've been toying with the idea of an attenuator again lately, but last time I was looking into it someone mentioned that if you have a master control you don't really need an attenuator. I'm playing through an Egnater Tweaker 15, which has a master volume control. I know many of you adore the tube saturation sound, and while I'm kind of in the middle in regards to tube saturation vs. preamp gain (I dig both sounds, don't have a preference), I'd like to experiment with tube saturation sounds. Does a master volume control offer tube saturation at bedroom levels, or would I need an attenuator to crank everything and keep it quiet?

If I understand tube saturation correctly, the goal is to get the power amp tubes to color your sound, not the preamp tubes. So I may be answering my own question, but an attenuator would be necessary to do this at bedroom volumes, correct?

Thanks!

 

[David Corrales]

If you want power tube distortion you need either an attenuator or variable power (ex. Marshall's EPA).

Master volumes limit the amount of signal going into the power section (from the preamp section), normally after or before the phase-inverter tube which is the last section before the power amp.

 

[frameboy]

Hey guys,

I've been toying with the idea of an attenuator again lately, but last time I was looking into it someone mentioned that if you have a master control you don't really need an attenuator. I'm playing through an Egnater Tweaker 15, which has a master volume control. I know many of you adore the tube saturation sound, and while I'm kind of in the middle in regards to tube saturation vs. preamp gain (I dig both sounds, don't have a preference), I'd like to experiment with tube saturation sounds. Does a master volume control offer tube saturation at bedroom levels, or would I need an attenuator to crank everything and keep it quiet?

If I understand tube saturation correctly, the goal is to get the power amp tubes to color your sound, not the preamp tubes. So I may be answering my own question, but an attenuator would be necessary to do this at bedroom volumes, correct?

Thanks!

The gain control and the master volume control are independent.

You can saturate the tubes and control the volume using both of them. You don't need an attenuators if you have a master volume. That's exactly what master volume controls are for.

You only need an attenuator if it's a big tube amp and there's no volume control.

My HRD has no master volume on the clean channel. I sometimes use an attenuator on it because everything comes from one gain control.

It has a master volume on the drive channel. I don't need an attenuator on that and can drive the gain way up and keep the volume down.

Stupid configuration, and makes the amp a total pain in the arse to use at home.

By contrast, my tiny JCM1 has one channel, a gain control and a master volume so it's dead easy to use at home.

 

[Adrian86]

I tried that with my Marshall MV head, I dialed in my normal sound and then raised the Master Volume to its sweet spot (for me that is when hear that the amp is really alive, touch sensitive but still clean when using effects in the loop)
With the attenuator you could get the power tubes to a good working point and therefore enhance the overall sound.

 

[Tweaker]

So is it even possible to get power tube distortion on a clean amp that has a master volume control?

 

[logen99999]

you would be wasting an Attenuator on a tweaker.

power tube distortion isn't all that amazing. a good balance of volume, and pre-amp gain gives the best results in MOST amps.

if you ever buy a marshal 1959 slp then it might be worth getting one. but for a tweaker? the things got a great master volume. and it sounds great at moderate volumes. it actually sounds fairly crappy when it's totally cranked. it's not made to be played dimed.

 

[romsquiz]

MV and a distortion pedal...twang on!

 

[patrickBOOTH]

What is the difference between a "good" master volume and a not good master volume?

 

[Tweaker]

MV and a distortion pedal...twang on!

The more I play with pedals the more I'm thinking this is the way to go! Rock on!

Thanks for the responses guys!

 

[onioner]

If you want power tube distortion without the volume, yes, you'll need an attenuator. That said, I wouldn't advise it. IMO and all, the vast majority of the time any tonal improvements you may gain by opening up the master are defeated by using an attenuator. In other words, in my experience, the vast majority of the time an amp sounds better with the master turned down than it does w/ the master up and attenuated. But, of course, YMMV. Still, I can confidently say that if you want power tube distortion without being really, really loud, you would need an attenuator.

What is the difference between a "good" master volume and a not good master volume?

A good one still sounds good when you turn it down, at least within reason. A nice taper is helpful as well. In theory, a dimed master should sound damn close to having no MV at all.

 

[onioner]

So is it even possible to get power tube distortion on a clean amp that has a master volume control?

Oops. Forgot this one. If it's really a totally clean amp, then no, you can't get any distortion at all (or it wouldn't be a totally clean amp...), but such doesn't really exist, at least in the guitar world. Dime your controls and odds are great you're gettin' distortion everywhere.

Note that the MV is irrelevant here. Dime a MV and it's very similar to not having one at all. Not the same, sure, as there's still a control there, and it still has an affect on the circuit, but very similar.

 

[wwit]

I went threw this with my AC15C1. Even at just 15 watts, it was far too much amp for my small music room. Turn the volume down and tone disapeared. turn the volume up and my hearing disapeared/windows rattled/pissed off the pets/ears bled etc.

So i then bought a Weber Masslite...which at the time I didnt relise wouldnt work. So there went $157 out the window....well $57 after it went buhbye on fleabay. for $100

YMMV I am no attenuater expert by any shape of the imagination. But I would venture a guess that you would have the same results with your Tweaker. Ive wanted one of those Tweaker's since it was introduced, but Ive been gun shy about buying any tube amp and finding its more amp than my living situation can handle. As it was I ended up selling off my AC15C1 and going SS so that I could play at more home and ear freindly volumes.

 

[onioner]

So i then bought a Weber Masslite...which at the time I didnt relise wouldnt work.

Wait, why wouldn't that work? You mean it didn't work in a satisfying manner? The latter I believe, but it should at least "work" in the sense of making your amp less loud.

 

[rjwilson37]

you would be wasting an Attenuator on a tweaker.

power tube distortion isn't all that amazing. a good balance of volume, and pre-amp gain gives the best results in MOST amps.

if you ever buy a marshal 1959 slp then it might be worth getting one. but for a tweaker? the things got a great master volume. and it sounds great at moderate volumes. it actually sounds fairly crappy when it's totally cranked. it's not made to be played dimed.

I have a Blackheart Handsome Devil which is 15w, and I know it sounds best at 1/2 to 3/4 volume, the power tubes are cooking and the tone is a lot better by a long shot than at 1/4 to a little above 1/4 volume bedroom levels. I can put my amp down to 7w and it just not sound as full as when I run it in 15w mode. Yea it can sound good when you put the volume at 3/4 in 7w mode, but it really is not the same, plus that is still to loud for bedroom levels.

 

[Tweaker]

I guess the question that it all really boils down to is...is the tone enhancement from power tube distortion really THAT much better than running the master volume at bedroom levels?

After reading through these posts and some other research, my gut tells me no...I'm beginning to think that regular volume levels compared to power tube distortion levels will only make a difference to the tone "snobs" (for lack of a better term) out there. To me, having pedals that get me supposedly very close to power tube distortion is good enough!

Thanks again guys!

 

[roeg]

Same as a non-master volume amp.You turn up the Master to be heard in a live band situation if your band is loud,mine is reasonably so,and we are in a large room.(bass,drums vocals,keys,second guitar.) My master volume amp opens up and sounds fanatastic up 2/3 to 3/4.I set the preamp to taste usually about 1/3,give or take .Then its a tad too loud,so the attenuator(ususally -4 or -8DB).

Players that are using a preamp for OD at low volume situations AND cranking a master and staying at bedroom volumes is a completely different application .To achieve good bedroom sound,running your amp into some sort of power soak that takes ALL the amps output,brings it down to line level,then re-amps it thru a small solid state power amp,with some necessary EQ while at line level before it hits the power amp,is the answer.There are a few devices out there.Those that are using them can comment on the sound.
My Dr Ho Attenuator(the Ultimate attenuator) does a good job of this,but i still prefer it turned up to more than bedroom volume.I use a volume that works well with my basement,which is not a big room and doesn't take well to anything approaching band rehersal/gig volume.But i'm still loud

 

[logen99999]

I guess the question that it all really boils down to is...is the tone enhancement from power tube distortion really THAT much better than running the master volume at bedroom levels?

NOPE. i have a soundproof studio where i can crank amps as much as i want. and tone wise a good master volume and an lower wattage amp running at moderate volume with a perfectly matched speaker is just as good.

the only thing you're missing from that cranked tube sound is the actual OOMP and kick you get from an amps transformers and the cabinet. that chugging low bass response POWER is what really amazes me sometimes. but you dont get that with an attenuator either. that's the only sacrifice, that and feeling like Angus Young while vibrating the entire room when hitting an A chord. that's a thing of beauty

also you really need to ask yourself how tone obsessed you are. there's a limit i reach before i realize that good tone is more about how i play then how saturated my tubes are, or what brand amp i have, etc etc. electronics and tinkering will only go so far. get what you need out of it and let your hands do the rest. the best guys didn't obsess about these things. they used what they had. we live in a world where everything is so easy. we have ever amp option imaginable. from solid state to hybrid to attentuation, and on and on. we can blame everything but ourselves for good tone because there are so many variables we can change. **** all that. plug in, get a nice juicy tone. make your magic from that.

 

[Tweaker]

Amen, brother. Rock and roll isn't about getting dreamy tone, its about playing loud and making do with what you have...and using that to stick it to the man! I find it interesting that the "dreamy tones" we are all looking for stem from back in the classic days when guys had less technology available to them and played with what they had.

 

[H.E.L.Shane]

if you ever buy a marshal 1959 slp then it might be worth getting one. but for a tweaker? the things got a great master volume. and it sounds great at moderate volumes. it actually sounds fairly crappy when it's totally cranked. it's not made to be played dimed.

Ummm.... thats becasue its going into power tube distortion on TOP of preamp distortion.....

IE.. your distorting and already distorted signal.. = noise


here's the deal.. to hear power tube distortion, you need to crack a CLEAN amp until it breaks up.... this is most easily done on a low wattage amplifier..


BCR Greg had a Sattelite Atom with a volume and tone control on it and a high and low gain input.. and thats it..... it was a good little amp to run a distortion pedal in front of for practicing........36 watts...... but when you cranked the volume OH MY GAWD did it sound INCREDIBLE.. THINK Highway to Hell Angus or a good Billy Gibbins chunky lead..... The last time I saw rhino bucket, Damage was using one..

the only problem..... you couldnt be in the store and have a throught in your head with that thing cranked!!!!!!!!!!

but... plugging into the high gain also adds a bit of preamp distortion at higher settings.... but.. you ge the idea

However... its been my experience that attenuators just don't give you the same effect if you try to use them to cut even an 18 watt tubbe amp down to bedroom volumes... IMHO they are best used by setting your amp so that you got the exact tone you want and then bringing the sould level down to something the sound guy can deal with!!




if you take a 100 watt tube amp, no master volume and crank it until it starts to distort, thats power tube distortion.. but.. to do that.. you'd better have ear plugs on becasue your pants are going to shake and the windows are going to rattle!!!!!!!!!!!!''


if you crank and 18watt clean amp until its distorts, you are STILL going to need the earplugs and the widows will probably STILL rattle, but the neighbors wont be shaken from their beds..



master volume amps distort the pramp section by adding a second volume knob and calling it the "gain knob" essentially.. what you are doing is not allowing the signal from the preamp to hit the power amp section, thus as you turn the "gain" knob up, the preamp section begins to clip.. you then open up the master volume to until you get the desired volume and tone..

you don't necessarily want power tube distortion from a high gain preamp.. you are adding gasoline to a fire and the results are not necessarily good (as the aformentioned tweaker with the gain and volume cranked)

 

[AxeBuilder]

I guess the question that it all really boils down to is...is the tone enhancement from power tube distortion really THAT much better than running the master volume at bedroom levels?

After reading through these posts and some other research, my gut tells me no...I'm beginning to think that regular volume levels compared to power tube distortion levels will only make a difference to the tone "snobs" (for lack of a better term) out there. To me, having pedals that get me supposedly very close to power tube distortion is good enough!

Thanks again guys!

Tweaker - I've had my Egnater Tweaker 15 for quite a while and went through the exact same thought process. I tried a variety of attenuators on this amp and they all made it sound like crap. In the end, using the master volume to keep the amp at bedroom levels was far superior and I do not feel like I lost out on any power amp distortion contribution to the tone.

+1 on using a good OD pedal on the Tweaker - I use the Paul Cochrane Timmy and it makes it sound wonderful at low volume settings.