As a Brit, I ask: Am I missing something.....

[cooljuk]

if guns are outlawed, the only people with guns will be the outlaws.

That's not entirely true. The cops and government and military would still have guns. ...oh wait.

 

[Phil47uk]

That's not entirely true. The cops and government and military would still have guns. ...oh wait.

Yeah and even bigger ones..And a limitless supply of ammunition when the average guy with his Glock runs out and finds the stores cleared out and nailed shut. laugh2:

 

[Thundergod]

The more guns on the street, the safer we all are.

Especially considering who's on the street: McStupids, Black Fridees and Gators fans; they need guns so we're safer.

 

[twangydave]

As another Brit said earlier, there's a lot of bunkem talked about UK gun laws. You can legally hold all sorts of guns as long as you meet the criteria i.e. you have legal access to land to shoot them on, you have a valid reason for ownership and you are not disqualified due to criminality or mental health. A valid reason can be membership of a gun club, pest control, sporting or competitive shooting, deer hunting etc Home defence and self defence are not valid reasons for gun ownership in the UK.

Handguns are out for most ordinary citizens due to Dunblane (even the UK Olympic pistol team has to travel to France to train) but are still held by a lot of people legally particularly people from both sides of the conflict in Northern Ireland, other political figures, supergrasses and informants and spooks. Semi-autos are out except in .22 LR calibre (10 round max magazine I seem to remember) as this is the most popular rifle to control rabbits with lamps from vehicles. There is growing ownership of AR style 'black rifles', these are either converted to single shot .223 or sometimes come in .22 LR. Ownership of single shot large calibre military and historic rifles is extensive but tends to be within Home Office approved gun clubs and ranges.

Perhaps the biggest misunderstanding is over shotgun ownership. Shotguns can be applied for by pretty much anyone, fill the form in, install a secure gun safe, get a reference, pass the medical and background checks and then you're in. You'll get visited by a firearms guy from the police who will check your gun cupboard and have a chat and a cuppa, he'll probably ask you why you've applied for the gun (most people would answer sporting shooting, pest control or clay pigeon shooting) but there is no box on the form asking why you want the gun and (as far as I remember) no legal need to provide a reason. If you want one and you pass all the checks, then you have the right to own one. Just don't use it to defend yourself against a burgular as you're likely to get in a bit of trouble.

 

[Deus Vult]

Home defence and self defence are not valid reasons for gun ownership in the UK.

absolutely and utterly insane.

your life is the one thing that is truly yours. if that's not worth defending, what is? it's sad that people are actually ok with that sort of thinking.

 

[12watt]

Home defence and self defence are not valid reasons for gun ownership in the UK.

absolutely and utterly insane.

your life is the one thing that is truly yours. if that's not worth defending, what is? it's sad that people are actually ok with that sort of thinking.

You don't cite it as the reason on the application, you dummy. Jeez.

 

[Benjammin]

You don't cite it as the reason on the application, you dummy. Jeez.

"defense" and "pest control" are the same thing depending on how you look at it

 

[X–Ray]

<snip>

Just don't use it to defend yourself against a burgular as you're likely to get in a bit of trouble

i've re-read the entire comment a number of times and have failed miserably in understanding this last sentence...

British humor?

Gallows humor?

Graveyard humor?

 

[Benjammin]

i've re-read the entire comment a number of times and have failed miserably in understanding this last sentence...

I think what he means, in some legal systems, there is alot more scrutiny placed on cases where guns were used in defense. If the courts decide that the shooting was unnecessary/excessive, then you as the shooter/victim could be in hot water.

Burglary isn't necessarily a violent crime, if someone were to break in to my apartment, I would want a gun handy to threaten them to get the hell out. Whether he turned and ran, or tried to engage me, would seal his fate. If he came at me and/or had a threatening object in his hands, and I shot him, that would be justifiable. If I shot him in the back as he ran away, that would probably make me look bad in the eyes of the law/courts, at least in Canada, and probably in UK/Europe also. Maybe not in America

 

[X–Ray]

Well thanks for your great,great,great,great,great,great,great,great,great, uncle for passing by my house without torching it..

my bad, i am a descendent of the Duke of Loudmouth...

 

[X–Ray]

I think what he means, in some legal systems, there is alot more scrutiny placed on cases where guns were used in defense. If the courts decide that the shooting was unnecessary/excessive, then you as the shooter/victim could be in hot water.

Burglary isn't necessarily a violent crime, if someone were to break in to my apartment, I would want a gun handy to threaten them to get the hell out. Whether he turned and ran, or tried to engage me, would seal his fate. If he came at me and/or had a threatening object in his hands, and I shot him, that would be justifiable. If I shot him in the back as he ran away, that would probably make me look bad in the eyes of the law/courts, at least in Canada, and probably in UK/Europe also. Maybe not in America

as always, thank you, Ben

to quote myself, "to rob in the middle of the night and/or burglarize during the day..."

apparently, there are different definitions of "robbery" and "burglary" between the UK and US

simply put: a robbery is where one person "robs" from another &#8211; typically, with some bodily threat stated and/or implied

a "burglary" is where one person steals another's property without the owner/authorized person present &#8211; the harm is to property, not potentially to persons

could be wrong regarding legal definitions as that i am not in law enforcement and wish not to "Google it" preferring to begin with myself as the primary knowledge holder before moving onto outside sources

seems to me, by definition, at least here in the US, once the "alleged" criminal enters your home, with you present, they have crossed the threshold from being a "burglar" to a "robber"

henceforth, they have forfeited certain legal rights such as not to be shot on sight while present in your living room with your R9 in one hand and a handgun in their other...

obviously, hitting them while missing the R9 is crucial

certainly, shooting them in the back while fleeing, however enjoyable it may be with regard to just deserts, would qualify as excessive and/or unwarranted use of violence with regard to the protection of property

again, i'd rather be in jail than six feet under, or worse (physically incapacitated for the rest of my life) with regard to the "robbery" scenario

having opined the above, am open to learning...

 

[Benjammin]

as always, thank you, Ben

to quote myself, "to rob in the middle of the night and/or burglarize during the day..."

apparently, there are different definitions of "robbery" and "burglary" between the UK and US

simply put: a robbery is where one person "robs" from another &#8211; typically, with some bodily threat stated and/or implied

a "burglary" is where one person steals another's property without the owner/authorized person present &#8211; the harm is to property, not potentially to persons

could be wrong regarding legal definitions as that i am not in law enforcement and wish not to "Google it" preferring to begin with myself as the primary knowledge holder before moving onto outside sources

seems to me, by definition, at least here in the US, once the "alleged" criminal enters your home, with you present, they have crossed the threshold from being a "burglar" to a "robber"

henceforth, they have forfeited certain legal rights such as not to be shot on sight while present in your living room with your R9 in one hand and a handgun in their other...

obviously, hitting them while missing the R9 is crucial

certainly, shooting them in the back while fleeing, however enjoyable it may be with regard to just deserts, would qualify as excessive and/or unwarranted use of violence with regard to the protection of property

again, i'd rather be in jail than six feet under, or worse (physically incapacitated for the rest of my life) with regard to the "robbery" scenario

having opined the above, am open to learning...

You are correct in what seperates robbery from burglarly, but someone breaking into your house, doesnt necessarily mean they are armed, and intent to (or will) commit harm. I think the courts issue (outside of the US) is with whether or not lethal force is warranted in protection of property. In the US, as long as you believe that your life, or someone elses, is being threatened, you are justified in using force for defence. I do believe its a more gray area in the US, where the individuals intent is secondary to the fact he is unlawfully in your home. But I know in France (and it sounds like the UK as well) a guy who might be trying to steal your R9, doesn't warrant being killed for, and you would have to answer for that (obviously if he's holding a gun, end of story- but it doesnt sound like most British burglars/robbers are expected to be carrying guns) Property can be replaced life cannot.

I agree with you, if someone enters my home unlawfully while Im there, they are liable to find themselves staring down a gun (if I can get it in time*) but that doesn't mean they need to be shot. I know personally, I'm not trying to kill anyone, only to protect myself. I hate picking up my laundry off the floor, let alone some dude brains

*one peice of Canada gun regulation I don't agree with is that all firearms must be stored and locked up, with the ammo stored in a seperate location in your home. I have a small apartment, if some dude breaks in, I don't have the time to run around, unlocking this and loading that. I want a gun on the floor by my bed, which I intend to do regardless of law

 

[X–Ray]

I do believe its a more gray area in the US, where the individuals intent is secondary to the fact he is unlawfully in your home

useful and relevant information, thank you

Property can be replaced life cannot

true...

I agree with you, if someone enters my home unlawfully while Im there, they are liable to find themselves staring down a gun (if I can get it in time*) but that doesn't mean they need to be shot. I know personally, I'm not trying to kill anyone, only to protect myself

I shot a man in Reno just to watch him die...

well, not me, but Johnny Cash did

I hate picking up my laundry off the floor, let alone some dude brains

not funny, i've seen photos of your room... i seriously doubt any gray matter could be located without a metal detector &#8211; even then, there would be a significant amount of sorting needed done

I want a gun on the floor by my bed, which I intend to do regardless of law

see, for a University boy, you're not so slow after all

;~)

 

[Benjammin]

not funny, i've seen photos of your room... i seriously doubt any gray matter could be located without a metal detector – even then, there would be a significant amount of sorting needed done

still, my guitars are usually out on stands, I'd hate for his blood to rust the strings (unless he has pure mojo coursing through is veins )

 

[Nicky]

All I know is that me and the wifey enjoy going to the gun range and shooting our collection of pistols at paper and steel targets for a couple of hours each month. Then, I enjoy tearing them down and cleaning them for two hours after we return home. Makes for a very pleasant afternoon.

Sometimes, our daughters join us. One is a scientist, the other is a US government attorney. Guess I'm the only redneck of the group.

 

[Joe Bonermaster]

I agree with you, if someone enters my home unlawfully while Im there, they are liable to find themselves staring down a gun (if I can get it in time*) but that doesn't mean they need to be shot. I know personally, I'm not trying to kill anyone, only to protect myself. I hate picking up my laundry off the floor, let alone some dude brains

hesitate at bad breath range in a dwelling = DRT

 

[12watt]

Guess I'm the only redneck of the group.

These have to be the only redneck trombone jokes in existence...

You know you're a redneck trombonist when:

You have to wait for the frying pan to cool down before you can lube your slide.

Your counterweight is a Copenhagen can filled with night crawlers.

You empty your water key and it comes out brown.

You don't need a lyre--you just clip the sheet music to the end of your baseball cap.

"Thayer" is the appropriate response to the question "Where'd you leave your trombone, boy?"

You lost your mute when the tuba player returned it for the five cent deposit.

I had to look up the Thayer one...

 

[twangydave]

i've re-read the entire comment a number of times and have failed miserably in understanding this last sentence...

British humor?

Gallows humor?

Graveyard humor?

Well my tongue was in my cheek but you have to have a sense of humour to navigate through British law as a lot of it makes very little sense to the man in the street.

Firstly, let me point out that it is my belief that citizens should have the protected right to defend their homes, their families and their property with appropriate force using any means at their disposal. Should they have aquirred the proper licenses and training then I believe that citizens should have the right to use firearms for this purpose.

My earlier point was that aquiring firearms in the UK is not difficult if you are prepared to jump through a few hoops. These firearms will not be licenced to you for the purposes of home defence (apart from the specialised cases I mentioned earlier of people considered 'at risk of attack') or self defense - sadly, we do not have the right in the UK to own firearms for the purpose of defending our homes, families or property. That is considered to be the job of the police due in part, to the very low likelyhood of your home being attacked. But should you wish to plan for that eventuality then you can - just don't mention it on your application.

At this point the law gets somewhat vague, have a look at this:-

Householders and the use of force against intruders

As you can see, you are legally allowed to use appropriate force but you can only use a weapon or object that is 'at hand' i.e. if you hear a noise downstairs and you grab one of your golf clubs and clatter a burgular then you'll probably be OK. If you sleep with a sword under your bed in case you get burgled and you use it, then this counts as planning and you could be in trouble. This of course covers shotguns as they should be in a locked cabinet when not in use, therefore as far as the law is concerned, they are not 'at hand'. You can see what I'm driving at, if you make plans to defend your home in the UK, you need to be aware of the law and have your story straight. If you intend to use weapons then you need to be able to pass them off as 'at hand'. Stupid I know but thats dear old Blighty for you!

 

[HOT-BRIT]

you are trying to put one & one together to make three

 

[X–Ray]

you are trying to put one & one together to make three

he say, one and one and one is three
got to be good looking 'cause he's so hard to see