Are 59 bursts worth THAT?!

[Patek]

Records? As in those black rotating discs that grandparents of today talk about as if they were somehow relevant?

Sorry, but just because some dinosaur keeps on seeling product in the millions (is there actually anyone doing that?) to an equally outdated audience it doesn't mean that it is important, nor will have any future value.

What a load of nonsense

how much do you think Paganini’s violin would sell for? Or Mozarts harpsichord? These bursts owned by the all time greats in blues & rock will be timeless and forever treasured by many generations to come

 

[grumphh_the_banned_one]

What a load of nonsense

how much do you think Paganini’s violin would sell for? Or Mozarts harpsichord? These bursts owned by the all time greats in blues & rock will be timeless and forever treasured by many generations to come

In no way have i ever disputed that these guitars are worth their money to collectors, and of course worth goes up with provenance - i mean, a burst that was used on groundbreaking records in the 60's is obviously worth a lot simply because of who owned the guitar.

But once again, only collectors and speculants think they are worth all that - of course some people in an audience might be wowed by the absurd prices these treasured instruments command, but no one can actually tell a difference in sound.
Not even the collectors.
Same goes for Stadivariuses. Can't tell them apart from modern violins at all

As for relevant music? Nahhh... the last groundbreaking music that was made with LP's was made in the late 60's - everything since then has mainly been a rehash of the stuff the 60's introduced.

 

[Patek]

In no way have i ever disputed that these guitars are worth their money to collectors, and of course worth goes up with provenance - i mean, a burst that was used on groundbreaking records in the 60's is obviously worth a lot simply because of who owned the guitar.

But once again, only collectors and speculants think they are worth all that - of course some people in an audience might be wowed by the absurd prices these treasured instruments command, but no one can actually tell a difference in sound.
Not even the collectors.
Same goes for Stadivariuses. Can't tell them apart from modern violins at all

As for relevant music? Nahhh... the last groundbreaking music that was made with LP's was made in the late 60's - everything since then has mainly been a rehash of the stuff the 60's introduced.

rubbish yet again

Slash, Billy Gibbons, Ace Frehley, Bob Marley, Duane Allmon, Peter Frampton, Gary Moore, Don fielder, Bernie Marsden!

Randy Rhodes, James Hetfield, Kirk Hammett, Zakk Wilde, Steve Clerk, Neil Schon, Tom Scholz, Gary Richrath, Joe Perry, Alex Lifeson, Adam Jones, the list of prominent and pioneering in their own way Les Paul players after “the late 1960s” is endless

Why do you come here if you hate les pauls so much?

 

[grumphh_the_banned_one]

rubbish yet again

Slash, Billy Gibbons, Ace Frehley, Bob Marley, Duane Allmon, Peter Frampton, Gary Moore, Don fielder, Bernie Marsden!

Randy Rhodes, James Hetfield, Kirk Hammett, Zakk Wilde, Steve Clerk, Neil Schon, Tom Scholz, Gary Richrath, Joe Perry, Alex Lifeson, Adam Jones, the list of prominent and pioneering in their own way Les Paul players after “the late 1960s” is endless

Why do you come here if you hate les pauls so much?

Goodness gracious - just because i do not think that music made in the 70's was groundbreaking you twist it into "he must hate LP's"?

Logic isn't your strong suit, i assume?


...oh yeah, and "Bernie Marsden as a groundbreaking guitar player" FFS i just spewed coca cola all over my carpet...

 

[Patek]

Goodness gracious - just because i do not think that music made in the 70's was groundbreaking you twist it into "he must hate LP's"?

Logic isn't your strong suit, i assume?


...oh yeah, and "Bernie Marsden as a groundbreaking guitar player" FFS i just spewed coca cola all over my carpet...

For you maybe, but others will disagree. You get personal but to be fair you just sound like a typical music snob we’ve all heard before. Very boring

 

[DBDM]

Perhaps it is just because I live in a very music oriented town (Nashville, Tn) but I see music business as "Alive and Well". Kids in my neighborhood play guitar, take lessons, and look at them online and in stores. Kids still go to Sam Ash just to look, talk about guitars in pawn shops, and run down there to see if they are still there, just like my buddies and I did. They call each other on Christmas and run over to see the new guitars/gear/gifts. The ONLY thing different in them vs us is that I see many of them drooling over Taylors (exactly zero of my friends ever wanted a Taylor)--but as for electrics it is still Gibson and Fender. Again, I see no change in my teenager (he is 17) and his buddies over me and my buddies (I am 50). My son's big Christmas present this year was a Mandolin. His #1 electric is a Pawn Shop purchased Studio (2008). His other favorite is a very good Tele (we do not know what brand it is--neither does George Gruhn--odds on bet from experts that have looked at it is that it is an early Bill Lawrence made Tele.) It plays GREAT. He went with me this past weekend to the Grand Ole Opry and went with another kid in the neighborhood to a show last night at a place called the Listnening room. This morning at breakfast he said that watching the show at the Listening Room last night had inspired him to want to get better. I do not see this generational shift in guitar playing that some here describe.

Recently my 17 year old came in discussing Klon pedals (he had watched a youTube) so we ordered a Klon clone to play around with. Again, no different than me (at 17) reading some article in some guitar magazine about some piece of gear that I could never afford...

To answer the questions above about "Guitarists since 1970"?--His idol is EVH. EVH is not MY idol but clearly is his.

 

[zdoggie]

I've never played a real 59 anything but I have played some really nice stuff I own a don felder lespaul sn# 000001 unsigned ,a 1983 korina moderne, a1983 or 84 korina flying v these guitars are prisitne what do you think these would be priced at in a vintage store yeah i'm gonna sell these I've had them long enough its time for someone else to enjoy
zdog

 

[DBDM]

I would have interest in the Moderne.

 

[Cozmik Cowboy]

If you are considering a 43 year old guitar, you are, in fact, a player in the vintage market!

Old ≠ vintage. To my thinking, "vintage" as applied to guitars has a certain connotation, and there are cut-offs. My thoughts on what's "vintage" for a few makers (and these are final cut-offs; there are, indeed, fine instruments after these, but "vintage"? Nope):

Fender - 1965 or older
Martin - 1968 or older (Brazilian, don't ya know)
Gibson - Kalamazoo
Epiphone - serious vintage is pre-Gibson; secondary vintage is '53-'69
Taylor - none
Santa Cruz - all
Larrivée - ditto

 

[01GT Eibach]

So my '79 SG Standard made in Kalamazoo is "vintage"?? ... Nice!

 

[ARandall]

Gibson 'vintage' is pre 1970. Kalamazoo closed in 83 and ran concurrently with Nashville from 75.

 

[bum]

As for relevant music? Nahhh... the last groundbreaking music that was made with LP's was made in the late 60's - everything since then has mainly been a rehash of the stuff the 60's introduced.

Lol this is such a middle aged American Dad point of view.

Some of my favourite music with Les Pauls / Gisbsons is stuff like this:

And guitars are alive and well and not in everyone's world are they tied into middle of the road 70s rock either, I adore this:

I look at my music collection and it's full of vibrant, exciting music, yes the gran dads of rock deserve all the credit in the world, but I would much sooner listen to this

I love me some Humble Pie, Faces, all that good stuff, but to say what I quoted is hilariously wrong

the music is out there, you just have to be aware of it I guess, it's different people that make up this world, I can count the albums I own by Kiss, Eagles etc on the fingers of no hands, it just does nothing for me at all.

 

[MP4-22]

 

[DBDM]

Old ≠ vintage. To my thinking, "vintage" as applied to guitars has a certain connotation, and there are cut-offs. My thoughts on what's "vintage" for a few makers (and these are final cut-offs; there are, indeed, fine instruments after these, but "vintage"? Nope):

Fender - 1965 or older
Martin - 1968 or older (Brazilian, don't ya know)
Gibson - Kalamazoo
Epiphone - serious vintage is pre-Gibson; secondary vintage is '53-'69
Taylor - none
Santa Cruz - all
Larrivée - ditto

So in the guitar shops I hang out in, like Gruhn's in Nashville where I live, the models you speak of are referred to as "Golden Age" models. Vintage=over 20 years old. Golden Age=best guitars that an individual company has ever made. Vintage≠Golden age. Also for certain brands, golden age can be different for different models.

George Gruhn defines "Vintage Guitars" as anything over 20 years. So a 2000 Les Paul is a vintage guitar. As he points out, when he started his business in 1970, a 1959 LP was not a "Vintage Guitar". He reserved that term for Gibson Archtops and Pre-War Martins. As for "Golden Age", he defines the pre-war era for Martins, 1950's for Gibson Electrics, 1920s for Mandolins, 1950's for Fenders, etc. He is quick to point out that we are likely living in a Golden Age and do not know it (nor did people buying Les Pauls in 1959-about 1965). For Martins and Gibson Electrics, George says the best were the "Golden Years". He says the second best era of those guitars is "Right now".

There have to be "buts" though. For example, was the era of the 50's the Golden era for an SG? Of course not, they were not made till 1961. So the term has to be reasonably model specific.

EDIT--since George Gruhn functionally invented the term "Vintage Guitars", I go with his definition. In addition to coining that term, he also, literally wrote THE book. He routinely fields calls from Gibson, Martin, and Fender about their own guitars. Other famous guitar authors and store owners call HIM to help with their books. I defer to him.

For the record, for those not living in Nashville--you can ask him too. He answers his emails and loves getting them. [email protected] (which for the record is an all time great email address)

 

[Patek]

The term vintage is liquid / marketing. It means something different to everyone. A vintage wine is just a wine from a particular year, could be good could be crap. “The 2018 vintage”

Fenders after 1965 are not desirable vintage
Gibsons after 1968 are not desirable either

but a 1970 LP deluxe is still “vintage” in my language - even though it’s worth less than a new 2021 customshop reissue even in NOS condition.

 

[Dalendl]

Ttt

And treat yourself to a new one every so often - nice thing is you can always sell a decent used guitar for close to what you paid for it (unless its a PRS). Cheers!

FYI, I have recently sold a few PRS guitars and they sold for more than I paid for them. 1989 Cu24 - paid $1650 for it and sold for $3000. 1992 Cu 24 goldtop- paid $1500 and sold for $2350. 2000 Singlecut - paid $1800 and sold for $2000. I guess it can be done...

 

[Cozmik Cowboy]

The term vintage is liquid / marketing. It means something different to everyone. A vintage wine is just a wine from a particular year, could be good could be crap. “The 2018 vintage”

Fenders after 1965 are not desirable vintage
Gibsons after 1968 are not desirable either

but a 1970 LP deluxe is still “vintage” in my language - even though it’s worth less than a new 2021 customshop reissue even in NOS condition.

Explanation of wine vintage: https://vintageportsite.com/about-v... shippers have declared,see The Weather above!).

 

[Patek]

Explanation of wine vintage: https://vintageportsite.com/about-vintage-port/declaration-of-a-vintage#:~:text=Historically, most shippers have declared,see The Weather above!).

That is the law surrounding the labelling of Port, in Portugal. Port is a fortified wine. This law / rule does not apply to all wines - but it is common in conversation.

the same type of laws apply in Scotland, it can’t be called or sold scotch whisky by law unless it has matured in Scotland and for a minimum of 3 years. The contents however is still technically whisky, whatever the law says.

there is no such law for guitars, the word vintage can be used as loosely as the seller wants. I’ve seen “vintage early 90s R9 historic” listed on eBay before

 

[guitartsar]

Lol this is such a middle aged American Dad point of view.

Some of my favourite music with Les Pauls / Gisbsons is stuff like this:

And guitars are alive and well and not in everyone's world are they tied into middle of the road 70s rock either, I adore this:

I look at my music collection and it's full of vibrant, exciting music, yes the gran dads of rock deserve all the credit in the world, but I would much sooner listen to this

I love me some Humble Pie, Faces, all that good stuff, but to say what I quoted is hilariously wrong

the music is out there, you just have to be aware of it I guess, it's different people that make up this world, I can count the albums I own by Kiss, Eagles etc on the fingers of no hands, it just does nothing for me at all.

Totally agree. There's plenty of great guitar music that was made after the 60's that has sold massive amounts of records. I mean the list is endless! I love 60's music but eqaully love guitar music from every decade including this one.

 

[grumphh_the_banned_one]

Totally agree. There's plenty of great guitar music that was made after the 60's that has sold massive amounts of records.

But it was derivative, not groundbreaking.
All that basically changed after the 60's was that progressively more distortion was used in guitar music.
(Some might claim that EvH was groundbreaking as well, but after him - nothing. Just craploads of rock in its various forms, all of which had been shaped in the late 60's.)


And why is it so important for some of you guys to postulate that these particular guitars are in any way relevant to todays music creation?

The "golden age" LP's are collectors objects and priced as such, and that is fine and dandy. Let collectors have them end enjoy them.

And if you should need a "les paul" sound on a record there is an immense choice of LP stye guitars, some of which are even made by the guys currently holding the rights to the Gibson brand name.