Any Fender Twin Reverb Users?

[funkyguitarman]

I am seeking anyone's input or advice on an issue that I noticed the other day while at band practice. So this is what I observed, at a moderate volume around 3 or 4 and the eq set to my preference, I get a really great full articulate clean sound which is what I am after. However that tone is only happening when my volume and tone are all the way up on my LP and tele, as soon as I touch my guitar volume I suffer a very noticeable treble cut. This treble reduction is not just my Twin but also my work amp. Is this normal for a Twin Reverb or just poor components in my guitars.

 

[SteveGangi]

I am seeking anyone's input or advice on an issue that I noticed the other day while at band practice. So this is what I observed, at a moderate volume around 3 or 4 and the eq set to my preference, I get a really great full articulate clean sound which is what I am after. However that tone is only happening when my volume and tone are all the way up on my LP and tele, as soon as I touch my guitar volume I suffer a very noticeable treble cut. This treble reduction is not just my Twin but also my work amp. Is this normal for a Twin Reverb or just poor components in my guitars.

It's probably the way the guitar's volume and tone controls are wired. Back off on the volume, the tone acts like it changed too. It would happen on every amp probably. The amp is only reproducing whatever signal it is getting.

It's not the quality of the components, it's the way they are wired. Look up "tone bucket" and "zero loading" etc for some explanations and ideas.

 

[funkyguitarman]

It's probably the way the guitar's volume and tone controls are wired. Back off on the volume, the tone acts like it changed too. It would happen on every amp probably. The amp is only reproducing whatever signal it is getting.

It's not the quality of the components, it's the way they are wired. Look up "tone bucket" and "zero loading" etc for some explanations and ideas.

Much Thanks

 

[MooCheng]

its something thats found with modern wiring, maybe its worth try ing 50's wiring

difference is one has the tone cap is before the vol pot the other its after but offhand carnt remember
which is which
seymour duncan has lots of diagrams on there site

 

[st.bede]

Nothing is wrong with the twin, as mentioned, it is a guitar issue.

My two cents is, if you are not using high quality ear plugs: attenuate! Sweet sounds out of a twin are breath-takingly loud. My hearing was incredibly at one point. Now not too good. I love twins, and a whole bunch of tube amps but they tend to reach a sweat spot up at ear damingly loud volumes.

 

[ATM47]

I used Twin Reverbs exclusively
for the first 10 years.
Then again from 1974 to 1977.
In my right ear 5K is almost completely gone.
Be careful.

To answer your original question,
the problem is the guitar wiring.

 

[GitFiddle]

I gigged with a Twin for many years. There's nothing wrong with your amps. The sound you are hearing is the guitar. When you back off the volume, you lose some of the crisp highs. I played Strats for a long time and only played with volumes and tones on 10 because anything less sounded like ass.

Now I play mostly LPs and discovered the whole 50s wiring thing. Thanks MLP
All my LPs are now wired this way. Now I am always working the tone and volume controls.

All the years I used to play a Twin, my average volume sweet spot was around 3-4. That was never all that loud with the rest of the band. On rare occasions when the band got loud, I would take it up to 4. But I don't remember ever having the volume any higher than 4. With the Twin sitting on the floor aimed at my knees, that volume was never that hard on my hearing.

 

[Paulie C]

FGM...that's an easy fix, just keep your git volumes wide open! Love those amps sound great, and build strength.

 

[RangerJay]

Many moons ago, I used to gig with a Dual Showman. Essentially, it was a Fender Twin head with a dual 15 cabinet (loved the sound of the 15s). It sounded great, but as others have noted, that comes with a price: LOUD!!!

I also have a significant high-frequency hearing loss, mostly in my left ear. I have been careful the past 20 years to protect my hearing. However, the damage has been done, and cannot be repaired. That is why I only buy low-wattage amps. I can crank them to a sweet spot and still not shake the walls.

The only reason I'd play a Fender Twin again was if I wanted to kill somebody. That's how freaking loud they can be. Too much. Also, my tastes have changed, and I rarely want/need a super clean sound.

 

[Gridlock]

I am seeking anyone's input or advice on an issue that I noticed the other day while at band practice. So this is what I observed, at a moderate volume around 3 or 4 and the eq set to my preference, I get a really great full articulate clean sound which is what I am after. However that tone is only happening when my volume and tone are all the way up on my LP and tele, as soon as I touch my guitar volume I suffer a very noticeable treble cut. This treble reduction is not just my Twin but also my work amp. Is this normal for a Twin Reverb or just poor components in my guitars.

I own two Twins and a few Marshalls and I notice the same thing with my Les Paul. For over 30 years guitar volume and tone knobs all set to 10 or too much treble cut for my ears.

 

[Splattle101]

There's a couple of things going on when you turn the vol down on your guitar.

The preamp valve has capacitance. It also has a resistor on the control grid. The resistor and the internal capacitance of the valve form a resistor / capacitor circuit, or RC filter. The filter attenuates all frequencies above a certain point. The cutoff point is determined by the equation:

f = 1/2PiRC

Where R is the resistance and C is the capacitance, and f is the frequency above which the signal is attenuated by 50%. For a given valve C is fixed, and of course Pi is also a constant. But if you make R larger, f gets smaller. Make R smaller, f goes up.

The volume control on your guitar is in series with that grid resistor. So when you roll down the volume at the guitar, you're increasing the size of the resistance and pushing the cut off frequency, f, downward. You're losing treble.

It's worse with a humbucker equipped guitar because the volume pots with humbuckers are usually 500 kOhm, where single coil Fenders usually have 250 kOhm pots.

There are several things you can do to get around this. They are:

1. install a treble bleed circuit on the volume controls of your guitars;
2. change your Les Pauls to vintage wiring; and
3. install smaller grid stoppers on your amps.

Number 1 is simplest. You should probably try number 2 anyway as a matter of principle to see if you like it. Number 3 is something amp manufacturers should bloody well think about. I can't believe the stupid bastards are still putting 68 kOhm grid stoppers in amps in this day and age. Even relatively non-traditional brands like Orange do it. The friggin' Tiny Terror - a single channel amp with a single input!! - uses a 68 kOhm grid stopper. It's madness. Even on the old Fenders you didn't get the full 68 k because they switched in parallel. But they don't do that on the TT: to make a TT behave the high sensitivity input of a Fender, you'd need to replace that 68 k resistor with a 34 k. It's just stupid.

It's yet another example of the people who are pleased to call themselves amp 'designers' just slavishly following ancient lore. It might be because it's the way St Leo of Fender did it, or it might just be because they don't actually understand the circuits they're building.

 

[Custom53]

When I used mine a lot I turn my guitar volume to max and then adjust the amp accordingly.. Come to think of it, I do all my amps that way...

 

[Splattle101]

Another way to approach this problem is to set the EQ of the amp so it sounds good when you're on your darkest guitar sound.

So set the amp so it sounds good on the neck pickup, with the guitar vol down. Then adjust the tone control on the guitar according to taste when you turn the volume back up.

In more detail, like this:

http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/tonefreaks/48038-how-use-controls-les-paul.html

 

[funkyguitarman]

Hey Guys thanks for all the information. This really helps out since the other amps at my job are rather shitty and I own a twin already. Having two of the same amp really makes gigs easy as I just plug my board in and guitar. It seems like the 50s wiring should be the antidote I'm looking for. Most gigs are inside at the usual bar/club venues but a few times a month I get to play outside on the tarmac for soldiers coming home and I have the go ahead to get loud so having a twin is always fun on those days.

 

[st.bede]

(Maybe the reason Leo of Fender became sainted was his ability to tinker around with stuff to try and make it better).

 

[GitFiddle]

Back when I was in HS, I got to see Roy Buchanan live. We were leaning right up against the stage, front and center, the whole night. The one thing I still remember clear as a bell. When they were getting him setup, a roadie walked out carrying a Fender Twin. He just set it up on a folding chair, aimed towards the back of the stage. Then he laid a microphone in the back of the amp chassis and walked off.

That was Roy's entire setup. He just came out plugged in and wailed all night.

 

[paulgibson]

After playing my fender twin reverb for 30 years 1974-2005, I have high frequency hearing loss. Those fender twins are wickedly loud but damn, they sound so good. Today, the twin just sits idle in the closet, begging to be on the road again. My go to amp these days is the 65 deluxe reverb reissue. 22watts of kickass, fender tone on a more hearing - friendly amp. I just may sell the twin someday.


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[SteveGangi]

... It sounded great, but as others have noted, that comes with a price: LOUD!!!

I also have a significant high-frequency hearing loss, mostly in my left ear. I have been careful the past 20 years to protect my hearing. However, the damage has been done, and cannot be repaired. ...

I think that is a common malady for those of us who grew up with Non-master tube amps. To hit the sweet spot we had to turn it up. My high freq hearing is all shot to hell also.

 

[duaneflowers]

After playing my fender twin reverb for 30 years 1974-2005, I have high frequency hearing loss. Those fender twins are wickedly loud but damn, they sound so good. Today, the twin just sits idle in the closet, begging to be on the road again. My go to amp these days is the 65 deluxe reverb reissue. 22watts of kickass, fender tone on a more hearing - friendly amp. I just may sell the twin someday.

Same here... 30 years with a twin... My go to amp these days is a Marshall 1-watter miked through the PA whenever possible... every year the twin just seems to get heavier!

 

[gibsonguitar1988]

Love my Twin and Super Reverbs for live. Loud yes, heavy yes. But I prefer how clean they are. Tube drive and breakup never did it for me, and the cleanness works great for the distortion pedals I like to use. They are killer amps and I love the high end I get from them when I crank the treble.

I set mine like so: Bass 4, Mids 7, Treble 7. Bright switch on.

You could try going for a darker sound and then playing a bit louder on the guitar and see if that helps it.