Another school shooting, Noblesville, Indiana

SteveC

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You guys are debating the absurd. Teachers with guns is insane. Smart guns are stupid.

Putting this bluntly... a shooter armed with a hi-capacity magazine fed rifle trumps a teacher armed with a pistol, even a school full of teachers armed with pistols.

You guys are talking about tactical situations??? You're kidding, right? These things are anything but that. They are chaos. You guys have no idea what is going on. And, moreover, no idea how quickly they happen.

Guys... really?
 

Thumpalumpacus

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Yeah, not all buildings were designed with that kind of escape in mind, but all new schools should be. So that has to be applied on a case by case basis, of course. None of this is “all or nothing”. You’re one of the more reasonable people I know, so I trust you get what I’m saying. But even those classrooms could get better doors, maybe with a light crossbar even, and something to close off any windows. And I think every school could be fitted with a warning system. Too many times we’ve seen kids interviewed and they say they found out because they heard the shots, or they started getting texts. Wtf??
It obviously can’t just be the fire alarm.

I totally agree that they should be teachers, first. But it seems that the new reality may begin requiring those who can to be more. It’s sad. They now are in a place where they may need to protect the class.
I don’t think it would distract them, after a week or two. Anyone who’s carried a gun at work knows you hardly even notice it after a week or so, and a teacher’s gun could be kept in a safe with a thumbprint lock, ready to go in 10-15sec at the very longest, with a little practice. But some mental preparation is needed, and they need to be warned that it’s coming.
Otherwise, it seems they could teach their whole careers and never feel a bit different. Bring it to class and lock it up in the morning, and take it home (or to a school safe) at night.
I don’t think it would be a huge distraction, after a while.
I don't want you to think I'm spacing your lengthy reply, but I'm a little busy now. I will give your post the thought and reply it deserves when I have a little time tomorrow morning.

My apologies.
 

Howard2k

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You guys are debating the absurd. Teachers with guns is insane. Smart guns are stupid.

Putting this bluntly... a shooter armed with a hi-capacity magazine fed rifle trumps a teacher armed with a pistol, even a school full of teachers armed with pistols.

You guys are talking about tactical situations??? You're kidding, right? These things are anything but that. They are chaos. You guys have no idea what is going on. And, moreover, no idea how quickly they happen.

Guys... really?

I’m not keen on guns in school either, but I don’t think that means that any discussion is a waste of time.

I also don’t think that all of the scenarios are completely implausible.

A school full of armed trained teachers with handguns couldn’t take down a kid with his dad’s AR15 under any circumstances? That could never happen? Even if they came at him from multiple angles? Or his gun jammed? Didn’t we just see a teacher defuse a situation where a student was armed (sure, not an AR15) and the teacher didn’t even have a handgun?

As I said already, I’m talking out my arse and have no experience in this field whatsoever, but it would seem that it’s not beyond the realms of possibility that an armed teacher could make a difference.
 

smk506

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I can't see how any teacher can be in the right frame of mind to both teach children AND be effective in a manhunt.
I can't see how you draw that parallel from the conversation at hand.

No one is suggesting teachers play any part in any man hunt, lol. In an active shooter situation, you arm up and hunker down.



I also don't see how carrying a firearm for those volunteering to do so would keep them from performing their jobs. Lots of states in the US have concealed carry permitting systems in place, and lots of people use them. People who aren't cops or soldiers are armed at work all the time. They're also armed at the grocery store, the pharmacy, walmart, the tire shop, that taco place that makes those things, yeah even there.

Yup, armed people. Guns, guns, guns everywhere.



Surprisingly enough, our streets don't actually run red with blood from all the shootouts, permit holders (or cops) aren't being shot with their own guns with any real degree or regularity, and the sun also rises.


If you were a teacher who didn't want the responsibility, fine. If you were a teacher who can pass the states permitting process and satisfy whatever other school requirements would be put in place, also fine. If you want to carry a gun and are legally disqualified, I probably don't want you around my kid unsupervised anyway.


Unless someone can explain the double standard for teachers I think it's as credible to call the idea possible as it is to call it ludicrous.
 

northernguitarguy

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I can't see how you draw that parallel from the conversation at hand.

No one is suggesting teachers play any part in any man hunt, lol. In an active shooter situation, you arm up and hunker down.



I also don't see how carrying a firearm for those volunteering to do so would keep them from performing their jobs. Lots of states in the US have concealed carry permitting systems in place, and lots of people use them. People who aren't cops or soldiers are armed at work all the time. They're also armed at the grocery store, the pharmacy, walmart, the tire shop, that taco place that makes those things, yeah even there.

Yup, armed people. Guns, guns, guns everywhere.



Surprisingly enough, our streets don't actually run red with blood from all the shootouts, permit holders (or cops) aren't being shot with their own guns with any real degree or regularity, and the sun also rises.


If you were a teacher who didn't want the responsibility, fine. If you were a teacher who can pass the states permitting process and satisfy whatever other school requirements would be put in place, also fine. If you want to carry a gun and are legally disqualified, I probably don't want you around my kid unsupervised anyway.


Unless someone can explain the double standard for teachers I think it's as credible to call the idea possible as it is to call it ludicrous.
Brother, that was not how I envisioned it. I guess I pictured a different expectation on the carrying teacher. If you are suggesting that the teacher would only be expected to protect the children under their supervision, that seems more reasonable. But damn, I hope they screen the shit out of any candidates. As well, I'd hate to see a colleague end up blamed for the deaths of children because they didn't rush towards the shooter.
 

Marshall & Moonshine

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You guys are debating the absurd. Teachers with guns is insane. Smart guns are stupid.

Putting this bluntly... a shooter armed with a hi-capacity magazine fed rifle trumps a teacher armed with a pistol, even a school full of teachers armed with pistols.

You guys are talking about tactical situations??? You're kidding, right? These things are anything but that. They are chaos. You guys have no idea what is going on. And, moreover, no idea how quickly they happen.

Guys... really?
Cool then.
Let’s just let the kids get fuckin shot.
My kids are homeschooled.
 

smk506

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Brother, that was not how I envisioned it. I guess I pictured a different expectation on the carrying teacher. If you are suggesting that the teacher would only be expected to protect the children under their supervision, that seems more reasonable. But damn, I hope they screen the shit out of any candidates. As well, I'd hate to see a colleague end up blamed for the deaths of children because they didn't rush towards the shooter.

I can understand all that. I mean, guns or kids, kids AND guns, kids with guns, these aren't simple things we're talking about here. I want to come back to this in a bit so I guess I'll just use this as a placeholder ala Rob and use it too to just say I'm glad we can talk this through like friends.
 

rogue3

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Well, the science teacher Jason Seaman is a bonafide hero, if the AP press release is accurate.Just read update this morning.

The takeaway.

"An Indiana science teacher (Jason Seaman)was released from a hospital a day after he was shot while tackling an armed student inside his classroom.Noblesville police Lt. Bruce Barnes confirmed Saturday that Jason Seaman was discharged from Methodist Hospital in Indianapolis.

Ethan Stonebraker, a student witness, said the shooter was acting suspiciously when he walked into the classroom while the class was taking a test Friday. He told ABC News that Seaman threw a basketball at the shooter and ran toward the bullets as screaming students sought cover behind a table.

Stonebraker said he knew the suspected gunman. He described him as “a nice kid most of the times” and said he often joked with the classmates.“It's just a shock he would do something like that,” Stonebraker said.

Janna Lynas of Noblesville, whose son was coached by Seaman in football,said she wasn't surprised to hear that Seaman intervened to save students. Lynas said Seaman emphasized character last year when he coached her son.

“He made it very clear: Yes, we are going to be playing football but if your grades aren't good, you're not going to be playing football,” Lynas said.

Jeremy Seaman told The Indianapolis Star that his brother was shot three times and underwent surgery. He said Jason Seaman was a defensive end for Southern Illinois University's football team and had never been a person to run away."


What a teacher! Morally fit to give an expert opinion on whether there should have been a weapon in his desk drawer,and would it have helped? In the chaos, and split second timing,i'd say he would have had to have a quick draw.

I would say Jason read the coverage,and went on hup one.It is what defensive ends do for a living.No time to think,just go for center mass.His reaction saved lives.Must have been the tackle to end all tackles.High five's Jason.

add:my kind of science teacher who keeps a basketball in science cless!


 
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JTM45

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This is such a difficult subject to tackle, we al want the school shootings to stop or at least be neutralized right away but the solutions all have consequences, I couldn't imagine a teacher having to shoot a student they were sworn to protect and teach in order to protect other students, the mental ramifications of that would be debilitating I'd think.

There have to be signs and parents and teachers both need to be trained to spot those signs and as hard as it is to do, parents have to recognize and confront those signs in stead of sweeping it under the rug, the parents had to know something wasn't right in these shootings before they happened.

I'm no perfect parent by any means but if something was fucking with my kids my wife and I knew it, especially if they tried to hide it, you just know your kids.

We have a situation where we are literally looking at arming teachers, creating safe rooms, making bulletproof backpacks, using steel to lock out armed students? What if the kid uses the steel to lock in the students and lock out the protectors?

This thing is such a damn mess and I don't think there's a clear answer, arming teachers, armed guards, police sub stations/ They're all ideas just not sure they're good ones but I have no counter to offer
 

SteveC

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The problem can only be solved, when the underlying cause(s) are fully known and understood. Currently, they are not. Once real consensus is agreed upon, it will take generations to reverse/stop (think poverty, hunger, child abuse and racism, none are close to eradication).

As much as we love to think otherwise, we do not have an appetite for that. Sorry.

What we love to do, however, is protest, tweet and hold vigils.

This shit makes me very sad. Not so much the actual events themselves. Don't be confused, though. They are horrific and heinous. The sadness is over our society and what we are leaving for our grandchildren.
 

Thumpalumpacus

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Yeah, not all buildings were designed with that kind of escape in mind, but all new schools should be. So that has to be applied on a case by case basis, of course. None of this is “all or nothing”. You’re one of the more reasonable people I know, so I trust you get what I’m saying. But even those classrooms could get better doors, maybe with a light crossbar even, and something to close off any windows. And I think every school could be fitted with a warning system. Too many times we’ve seen kids interviewed and they say they found out because they heard the shots, or they started getting texts. Wtf??
It obviously can’t just be the fire alarm.
Yeah. Gov Abbott here in Texas recently met with survivors of the Santa Fe shooting, and that was one of the suggestions the students had -- a specific shooter alarm, so that there's no question as to whether they should hunker down or get out. And yes, doors should be reinforced to deny unauthorized entry while allowing rapid egress in the event of fire.

I totally agree that they should be teachers, first. But it seems that the new reality may begin requiring those who can to be more. It’s sad. They now are in a place where they may need to protect the class.
I don’t think it would distract them, after a week or two. Anyone who’s carried a gun at work knows you hardly even notice it after a week or so, and a teacher’s gun could be kept in a safe with a thumbprint lock, ready to go in 10-15sec at the very longest, with a little practice. But some mental preparation is needed, and they need to be warned that it’s coming.
I'd think it'd be a distraction in a couple of ways: the training would have to be more often than quarterly at least at first, and teachers are too often doing unpaid work already. In paying for the program, then, the distraction would be distracting the funding. I think that if we're going to lay out money for organic defense in schools, we'd be best off hiring security professionals.

Otherwise, it seems they could teach their whole careers and never feel a bit different. Bring it to class and lock it up in the morning, and take it home (or to a school safe) at night.
I don’t think it would be a huge distraction, after a while.
You could well be right, I don't know.

You guys are debating the absurd. Teachers with guns is insane. Smart guns are stupid.

Putting this bluntly... a shooter armed with a hi-capacity magazine fed rifle trumps a teacher armed with a pistol, even a school full of teachers armed with pistols.

You guys are talking about tactical situations??? You're kidding, right? These things are anything but that. They are chaos. You guys have no idea what is going on. And, moreover, no idea how quickly they happen.

Guys... really?
When you do nothing in the face of a problem, failure is the *only* option.
 

GearHo

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The most dangerous thing at a school is another student.

Teachers should teach, if they are cc holders and they choose to carry concealed at school fine it may help in an active shooter situation when security is not present.

Armed security works, that's why politicians and celebrity's have them.

Metal detectors are somewhat effective, but in most schools are Impractical.

Funneling in kids through one entrance or exit is a recipe for countless problems, and an easy attack area for a bad guy

The mere presence of resistance to an active shooter, will deter many of them, they want soft targets.

Repealing 2A, is ludicrous. The pushback would be so overwhelming, that it would create more problems than it would solve.

See something,say something is a joke. It's ineffective, and never will bring about the level of change needed.

For those tactical minded that think in a gunfight your precise targeting skills will allow you to pick center mass, or headshot, you have probably never been in a gunfight. You shoot center mass because it is the largest area on the body, and you shoot to stop a threat, nothing more, unless you objective is unlawful.

I believe that the spirit behind these discussions is always in the best interest of keeping kids and school staff safe, how we get there is where the challenge lies.

You can blame video games, bad parenting, mental illness, anything you like. But by the time an active shooter comes into a building with evil in his heart, all those things are secondary to your immediate safety.

Let me share with you some of the hypocrisy of students that are local to me. Granted I know a lot of these kids personally, and their parents as well.

They protest gun violence at school, they walk out of class with shirts on that say "enough" in big bold font.

Sounds right, they are advocating a point to promote safety, and have the first amendment rights to defend so.

Then every year seniors play the "assasin" game. They pool their money for the grand prize. Students go out in the neighborhood with fake guns and try to sneak up on their victim and eliminate them.
Their "fake" guns are pretty convincing from a few feet away.

So one year early in the morning I see a strange vehicle parked at the end of my long driveway. Two males in the front seat just sitting there. I go outside And approach the vehicle and see what looks like a rifle, and pistol in the hands of the males in the vehicle.

I was armed.

As I approach the car I notice it's two kids I coached on my baseball teams for years, in fact one of the kids Dads was my fellow coach.

I asked them what they were doing and they told me about the game, and they were here to assisinate the young lady student across the street from my house.

I kicked their asses of my property and told them it was a great way to get themselves hurt. Just think what that looks like to a parent, some dope running up to your child looking like they are about to be shot.

This was back in 2012. The game is still being played this year.

So where is the school, nowhere, where is the enough sentiment printed on your shirt,nowhere.

I know it's a fake gun and a "game" but it's hypocrisy at its finest by more than just the immature actions of students.

I am all for student safety, but they do little to advance their cause other than to demand for gun control.

Let them stop bullying each other at school, facebooking their way to popularity at the expense of others. Let see the school officials advocate for the treatment of mentally challenged students instead of burying the
Problem year after year.

It's not an easy fix, but if it doesn't start with the students it will never be resolved.

Please, my forum brothers, and sisters, i would ask that if you disagree with my comments you are welcome to post your thoughts. Please spare me the vitriol and anger if that is all you have to offer. I know this is a very passionate topic, and I respect your views as I hope you will respect mine.
 

Roxy13

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Actually, throwing everything you can is what you should do when confronted with an active shooter in a classroom. If 30 people are throwing things at him, it sure makes it hard for him to accomplish what he set out to do. Sitting in a corner together as a group of targets is not very smart.
 

Nicky

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If this was another student gunman i believe that there is a need for psychological exams as well as academic exams in public schools to find the children that are in need of help. This is how they are educated for academics,.. some of these psychological issues are educational while of course others are medical,.. but we will never know unless we try. Of course like any kind of educational process the parents should be directly involved. This is just an opinion,.. not a crusade.
With the current trend of de-funding public schools, who’s going to pay for psychological screening? The school fairy?
 

GearHo

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The problem with psychological exams is HIPPA, you are most likely violating the medical privacy of the individual.

In regards to many of these school shooters their mental state has been made very aware to those around them based on their behavior. The problem is you cant do anything about it. Recommend that one of the students needs to be put in a mental institution or need mental evaluation, and you are in for a rough ride. Most people would rather avoid that and hope the problem goes away or doesn't affect them.

As students participating in classes every day, you know real quick who the crazy kids are, whether they have been diagnosed by a professional is irrelevant, you see them, you see their behavior, and the teachers see it as well. The Parkland shooter had such an extensive history of mental instability and bad behavior that did not result in any correction to his heinous act.

I learned a lot about the students in my kids classes by getting involved with coaching. I coached three sports and was familiar with most of the kids in the community. You knew when these guys were little which ones would turn out to be real social problems. Everyone does, nobody does much about it.
 




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