A teacher's view

[CenCalPlayer]

You name it...it's in the legal citizen population. Your point?

I would assume you must have some staggering statistics to support your statement. I'm not just being an ass. I would genuinely like to see these statistics.

Depending on whose stats you want to quote, 10-40% of the prison population in California is illegal aliens and that number is growing....the State has been trying for years to get the Feds to take responsibility and/or pay for these people, but it doesn't....

California prisons won't hold some illegal immigrant offenders | L.A. NOW | Los Angeles Times

California Prison System In 'Crisis,' Governor Says - washingtonpost.com

An Inconvenient Truth about California's Prison Crisis

The Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR): Criminal Aliens

Let's not kid ourselves and be PC by pretending that illegals in our country, and heavily in the border states, are getting to be a big problem....

 

[coldsteal2]

The only way to develop the Mexican economy would be to invade their country and execute all corrupt officials, drug lords and gangs. Short of that, there is nothing we can to to stimulate their economy.

in the right hands that country could be made
into a very nice place and very productive
the southern part of Mexico is very green
really its a shame how it is there

 

[MineGoesTo11]

Thank you.

My attempts to face reality are normally met with derision and accusations of being a leftist, commie bastard. I am nothing of the kind. I am a realist.

So you're a leftist commie realist bastard.

 

[HARDWEAR]

Do they not already pay sales taxes, gas taxes, communications tax for cell phones, etc etc etc.

Whats missing is income tax only.

What's missing is their legal right to be here. I FEEL SORRY for all the immigrants that are trying their damndest to do it the right way (which needs to be fixed too), only to see thousands, no millions of illegals get away with it.

Geo, you mean to tell me you wouldn't feel slighted if YOU were an immigrant trying to become an American citizen going through the proper channels and had this mess going on? I would.

 

[CenCalPlayer]

I'm opposed to putting all of our eggs in one leaky basket. You wanna seal that sucker? You pay the taxes to get 'er done.

We already do....its called the military...and we already are paying for it....why not use it? This isn't rocket science....

 

[KSG_Standard]

As was stated before by River. If there was a will in the corridors of power to shut down the flow of immigrants, it would happen. There is an interest in keeping the cheap labor coming for certain parties.


River states that closing the border tight is not plausible, and I think he's right. So the alternative is to do something that removes the incentive to move across the border. That would mean developing the Mexican economy into something that doesn't drive people into the US looking for a better life. That means putting pressure on the Mexican government to weed out corruption, and to snuff out the drug lords.

Ostensibly, Nafta was supposed to be a benefit to all parties, but I don't think the Mexican people have benefitted largely from it. Closing the border down or tightening it significantly is going to be met with fierce resistance from all of the parties involved in cross border trade.

Mexico has benefited greatly from NAFTA. But they benefit MORE from the money being sent south across the border by the illegals.

The cheap labor argument is a red herring. It's more complicated than labor alone, it also has to do with VOTERS...MILLIONS of voters and IDEOLOGY.

The only way to help Mexico improve their economy would be to invade and and make them a part of the US. Mexico has enough natural resources to be a 1st world country. They have gold, silver, uranium, farm land, fishing, oil, and some of the best craftsman and workers in the world. What they don't have is an honest, transparent government, decent education, safety and political will.

Decriminalize pot in the US and take the pot trade out of the picture. Build smart border defenses, deport ANY and EVERY illegal we catch, enforce workplace rules, outlaw sanctuary cities, stop offering free services to NON-citizens, stop rewarding illegal behavior.

It's really not that hard. It just takes honest politicians in the American gov't and state gov'ts, and a little political will.

Or we can do what the Texas Governor was trying to do. He wanted to build an 8 lane high speed tollway and rail corridor to shuttle the illegals quickly, safely and comfortably to Canada.

 

[MineGoesTo11]

We already do....its called the military...and we already are paying for it....why not use it? This isn't rocket science....

Wouldn't the people in the border states see deploying the military in that fashion as an intrusion on State's rights?

 

[coldsteal2]

So you're a leftist commie realist bastard.

commie and realist don't belong in the same sentence

 

[KSG_Standard]

So if you made them all citizens, then you'd increase the tax base by the number of those millions who are able to work?

Our current unemployment numbers are staggering...How about you Canadians take the Illegals and make them Canadian citizens? It'll be awesome, remember they are all peace loving, hard working, decent people who don't commit ANY crimes.

Here's an idea...how about they stay in Mexico and build their own socialist, progressive utopia?

 

[Ed Zeppeli]

Our current unemployment numbers are staggering...How about you Canadians take the Illegals and make them Canadian citizens? It'll be awesome, remember they are all peace loving, hard working, decent people who don't commit ANY crimes.

Here's an idea...how about they stay in Mexico and build their own socialist, progressive utopia?

uh, I'll vote for plan B.

 

[CenCalPlayer]

Wouldn't the people in the border states see deploying the military in that fashion as an intrusion on State's rights?

Hardly....we could use the Nation Guard in this situation pretty easily as well...Units have a certain amount of require drill time they are required to perfom every year....doesn't cost any more to have them do that drill on the border as it does on a range somewhere.....this isn't complicated until you start putting political BS into the equation....

 

[geochem1st]

.....

Why do we even have a country? Why not just have a region where people can come and go as they please, from anywhere on earth?

...

"I hold the right of expatriation to be inherent in every man by the laws of nature, and incapable of being rightfully taken from him even by the united will of every other person in the nation. If the laws have provided no particular mode by which the right of expatriation may be exercised, the individual may do it by any effectual and unequivocal act or declaration." --Thomas Jefferson to Albert Gallatin, 1806. FE 8:458

"Expatriation [is] a natural right, and acted on as such by all nations in all ages."

--Thomas Jefferson: Autobiography, 1821. ME 1:12



"Our ancestors... possessed a right, which nature has given to all men, of departing from the country in which chance, not choice, has placed them, of going in quest of new habitations, and of there establishing new societies, under such laws and regulations as, to them, shall seem most likely to promote public happiness."
--Thomas Jefferson: Rights of British America, 1774. ME 1:185, Papers 1:121

Found some new sigs for you KSG

 

[KSG_Standard]

ex·pa·tri·ate (k-sptr-t)
v. ex·pa·tri·at·ed, ex·pa·tri·at·ing, ex·pa·tri·ates
v.tr.
1. To send into exile. See Synonyms at banish.
2. To remove (oneself) from residence in one's native land.
v.intr.
1. To give up residence in one's homeland.
2. To renounce allegiance to one's homeland.
n. (-t, -t)
1. One who has taken up residence in a foreign country.
2. One who has renounced one's native land.
adj. (-t, -t)
Residing in a foreign country; expatriated: "She delighted in the bohemian freedom enjoyed by the expatriate artists, writers, and performers living in Rome" (Janet H. Murray).

Are you suggesting that TJ wanted, or believed that people could just show up anywhere they wanted to with no gov't intervention? Or was he talking about the inherent freedom of men to LEAVE the country of their origin?

Since you are so enamoured with, and so atuned to TJ...he also believed and spoke about the Federal Gov't being a necessary evil that should be constrained by the Constitution. He was a proponent of America being a nation of laws, not men.

 

[JMV]

Depending on whose stats you want to quote, 10-40% of the prison population in California is illegal aliens and that number is growing....the State has been trying for years to get the Feds to take responsibility and/or pay for these people, but it doesn't....

California prisons won't hold some illegal immigrant offenders | L.A. NOW | Los Angeles Times

California Prison System In 'Crisis,' Governor Says - washingtonpost.com

An Inconvenient Truth about California's Prison Crisis

The Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR): Criminal Aliens

Let's not kid ourselves and be PC by pretending that illegals in our country, and heavily in the border states, are getting to be a big problem....

Between 10% and 40%? That's quite a difference don't you think? Assuming those are accurate statistics, that means between 60% and 90% are legal citizens. That's more indicative of the human condition than the idea that immigrants are the ones with the issues.

And yes, I realize their presence here is breaking the law. I get it. I also don't like it, but what the hell did I do to earn the right to live here? Nuttin.

 

[geochem1st]

ex·pa·tri·ate (k-sptr-t)
v. ex·pa·tri·at·ed, ex·pa·tri·at·ing, ex·pa·tri·ates
v.tr.
1. To send into exile. See Synonyms at banish.
2. To remove (oneself) from residence in one's native land.
v.intr.
1. To give up residence in one's homeland.
2. To renounce allegiance to one's homeland.
n. (-t, -t)
1. One who has taken up residence in a foreign country.
2. One who has renounced one's native land.
adj. (-t, -t)
Residing in a foreign country; expatriated: "She delighted in the bohemian freedom enjoyed by the expatriate artists, writers, and performers living in Rome" (Janet H. Murray).

Are you suggesting that TJ wanted, or believed that people could just show up anywhere they wanted to with no gov't intervention? Or was he talking about the inherent freedom of men to LEAVE the country of their origin?

Since you are so enamoured with, and so atuned to TJ...he also believed and spoke about the Federal Gov't being a necessary evil that should be constrained by the Constitution. He was a proponent of America being a nation of laws, not men.

An expatriot from one country is exactly the same as an immigrant to the host country. You are playing at semantics.

I am suggesting that TJ's words speak for themselves.

 

[River]

We already do....its called the military...and we already are paying for it....why not use it? This isn't rocket science....

Your condescension is fully appreciated, and quite palpable.

The military is not a bottomless resource we just deploy at will, in several places simultaneously, to equal effect in each place. They can't be burning opium poppies in Afghanistan, conquering Iraq, and sealing our borders at the same time and/or at the same net expense, whether it's measured in lives, psyches, or dollars.

Rocket science, btw, is Tinker Toys when compared to the issue of deploying Federal military resources to solve domestic problems. Or perhaps you're not quite the Constitutional scholar you fancy yourself.

I thought you guys were all about limiting Federal authority.

 

[KSG_Standard]

An expatriot from one country is exactly the same as an immigrant to the host country. You are playing at semantics.

I am suggesting that TJ's words speak for themselves.

No. To expatriate from one country is NOT the same as immigrating to another country. That's not semantics, that's simple logic and fact. If Thomas Jefferson saw what the left has done to this country, he'd start another revolution. He believed in States Rights and LIMITED Federal Government. Not a welfare state with open borders.

We all have a right to leave the country of our origin, no government has the right to keep us prisoner within their borders (unless we are incarcerated for a crime), but to extrapolate from that idea to the idea that we all have a natural right to enter another country and make ourselves citizens without following the law is preposterous.

Even if your conjecture was right, the law says otherwise. It is illegal to enter this country without following the law of the land. Walking across the southern border into the US, DOES NOT make you a citizen of the US and DOES NOT make you eligible for Constitutional Rights, or education, or health care, or any other right or entitlement afforded to US citizens.

 

[River]

<snip>Walking across the southern border into the US, DOES NOT make you a citizen of the US and DOES NOT make you eligible for Constitutional Rights, or education, or health care, or any other right or entitlement afforded to US citizens.

Well, we do afford certain privileges to anyone who happens to be on U.S. soil. Right or wrong, it's been that way for a LONG time.

If I come waltzing across the border with a few kilos of coke, I'm probably going to be afforded more "rights" and privileges than you, me, KP, and Geo put together. Money talks, bullshit walks.

 

[KSG_Standard]

River, correct me if I'm wrong, but using US Federal troops to guard the border would not be using them for domestic law enforcement, which would be illegal under the Posse Comitatus Act. As long as the troops were facing "outwards" so to speak, it would be legal. They would, after all be doing a Constitutional duty to protect the borders.

Even if I'm wrong, the National Guard could do the job, under control of the States. Where's a lawyer when you need one? Where's Dice?

 

[River]

River, correct me if I'm wrong, but using US Federal troops to guard the border would not be using them for domestic law enforcement, which would be illegal under the Posse Comitatus Act. As long as the troops were facing "outwards" so to speak, it would be legal. They would, after all be doing a Constitutional duty to protect the borders.

Even if I'm wrong, the National Guard could do the job, under control of the States. Where's a lawyer when you need one? Where's Dice?

I don't know, but I'm betting you're right.

Thing is - can we afford them? We can't have them being the world's police force and ours too, in any event. Unless we crank the draft up again.

Our national resolve is deep, until we start digging into our own pockets and offering to sacrifice our own children. Then, lines get drawn.