A teacher's view

[MineGoesTo11]

You and I don't agree on much, but we're realists. Reality doesn't come in very many flavors, does it?

You can't trust River, he's a commie leftist realist.

 

[diceman]

You can't trust River, he's a commie leftist realist.

The last word makes it all okay!

 

[geochem1st]

You act like these are all expenses that are not already being incurred...and that is not the case....we move soldiers for training all of the time and its an ongoing budget item for all units....we provide the same food, equipment, etc. to them if they are walking a border fence as we would if they were playing war games in the desert...the mission might be different, but the resources we are using are not going to change a whole lot....plus you are ignoring the huge savings that will be had if can shut down the flow of illegals jumping on our social programs.....

Training, food and equipment costs are being accrued in the US, but not at the level that manning an 1800 mile border would need. How many FOB's would have to be built to give the required density needed to plug the holes? New training protocols would have to be developed, evaluated and enacted. Different equipment would be used, it goes on.

I do have an idea of what I am talking about also. I am a DoD certified project manager, with laison missions with the military. I have done my share of logistics and mission planning.

I am not saying this is the only answer to the illegal immigration equation, its not. But until we stop the flow of illegals, or at the very least greatly diminish it, we are not going to get this problem under control....at this time the U.S. military and Naional Guards are the only options we have to quickly depoly the number of boots on the ground that are needed to assist the Border Patrol.....the military and guard units are professionals who are more than up to the task of securing our borders.....I know a lot of them and this wouldn't be anything they couldn't handle with ease.

The only effective deterrent to the flow of illegal immigration is an economic one, not a legal, or military solution.

 

[MineGoesTo11]

Training, food and equipment costs are being accrued in the US, but not at the level that manning an 1800 mile border would need. How many FOB's would have to be built to give the required density needed to plug the holes? New training protocols would have to be developed, evaluated and enacted. Different equipment would be used, it goes on.

I do have an idea of what I am talking about also. I am a DoD certified project manager, with laison missions with the military. I have done my share of logistics and mission planning.



The only effective deterrent to the flow of illegal immigration is an economic one, not a legal, or military solution.

... and probably the most cost effective, mutually beneficial solution.

 

[CenCalPlayer]

I was in the military for ten years, specialized in logistics and training. No more, no less. I may not have any idea what I'm talking about. Then again, I might.

Kent State is relevant because it was an incident involving inadequately trained, armed troops engaged in a civil law enforcement mission for which they were not properly trained. The made a little mistake, and little parents lost their little children unnecessarily. If you don't think the same would happen with inadequately-trained NG troops on border patrol, you're a hopeless optimist.

I see you're posting whilst I'm replying, and all I see so far is that you're underscoring your own quite inadequate knowledge of logistics. When you don't know what you're talking about, the best course of action is to fess up.

Well glad to hear you served too....though surprised at your lack of confidence in our troops....I guess these troops are trained well enough for combat in places like Iraq but not trained well enough to patrol the border and detain or turn back illegals while assisting the Border Patrol?.....Sorry, but the men and women I know in the Guard and Reserves are a hell of lot higher caliber people than what you make them out to be and they certainly aren't fresh out of high school types without a brain in their heads....the funny thing is the Guard members I know have said there are deloyment plans in place should they be needed on the borders....sounds like maybe they know a bit about the challenges and logistics involved, maybe a bit more than you or me.....think I will take there expertise over yours in this case....no fessing up needed here as I have faith in the men and women in uniform (actives, reserves, or guard) and believe they are more than capable of handling border patrol duties and the logistics to do so.....sorry you feel they aren't incompetent to do so.

 

[geochem1st]

.....Sorry, but the men and women I know in the Guard and Reserves are a hell of lot higher caliber people than what you make them out to be and they certainly aren't fresh out of high school types without a brain in their heads..........

...... A lot of guard guys are young and just out of high school without any "real" civilian job (Walmart, etc.). And, in this economy, a lot of guys are finding themselves out of work and are begging for termporary work with the Guard, which they are given as budgets allow. I think that you could EASILY get 5-10,000 volunteers from the Guard/Reserve to go pull duty on the border, particularly in this economy. (I myself just got out of the Guard last month - and was Active Army prior to that)

 

[diceman]

As crazy as things are getting south of the border lately, it would be within the realm of reality for a couple of cartel militias to invade S. TX or AZ. In that case... I think we'd have a large scale military response.


As for sending "MPs" to the border... I would support it. I know that down in New Orleans they have had Army MPs augmenting local law enforcement for years (I last talked to some LA Guard guys who were on this duty about 2 summers ago - they were doing it long after Kartrina). They were on State Active Duty.

I guess we could assume that if it were feasible, Arizona would have tried it already, though!

 

[CenCalPlayer]

Training, food and equipment costs are being accrued in the US, but not at the level that manning an 1800 mile border would need. How many FOB's would have to be built to give the required density needed to plug the holes? New training protocols would have to be developed, evaluated and enacted. Different equipment would be used, it goes on.

I do have an idea of what I am talking about also. I am a DoD certified project manager, with laison missions with the military. I have done my share of logistics and mission planning.



The only effective deterrent to the flow of illegal immigration is an economic one, not a legal, or military solution.

Not saying you are going to flip a switch and overnight have instant success, it is going to take time to put the required boots where they are needed. But having said that, you are not going to stem the flow of illegals unless you put those boots on the ground with the Border Patrol and do some of the other economic things you are suggesting. I already said boots aren't the only answer but rather part of the equation. However the assertion that we can't stop a flood of people from flowing across our borders by using the military is nothing more than ignoring the problem and allowing it to continue.

 

[diceman]

I think that the demographic of the National Guard is generally "older" than the Active Army. In the Army, there is a LOT of turnover. Guys get in at 18, do their 3 to 6 years, and a large percentage of them get out. That is why we have so many E1-4s running around in the Active Army. Its great. In the Guard, we have a much larger percentage of people who stay in for 20 - which results in a lot of "lock up" around the rank of E4 and E5. You won't see too many 40 year old E-4s in the Active Army - but I've seen my share of them in the Guard. We had guys who had been in for 20 years as E4s, and one retired at 30 years as an E-5. Yowza.

So, on average, the Guard is older. THAT SAID, there are a whole lot of young soldiers in the Guard. My last unit was probably 40% lifers who were locking up the upper ranks, 20% were late 20s or early 30s, and a good 40% were ages 24 or younger. I haven't surveyed the entire National Guard, but this is what I observed over my 4 years in the Guard and 3 Active. And, of those young people who are in the guard, at least half of them had no college and a minimum wage job. Quite a few of the older guys in my unit were out of work oil rig workers.

I don't know where I'm going with this... just clarifying.

 

[CenCalPlayer]

As crazy as things are getting south of the border lately, it would be within the realm of reality for a couple of cartel militias to invade S. TX or AZ. In that case... I think we'd have a large scale military response.


As for sending "MPs" to the border... I would support it. I know that down in New Orleans they have had Army MPs augmenting local law enforcement for years (I last talked to some LA Guard guys who were on this duty about 2 summers ago - they were doing it long after Kartrina). They were on State Active Duty.

I guess we could assume that if it were feasible, Arizona would have tried it already, though!

The govenors have been very reluctant to deplay the National Guard to the borders as it could very well open up a whole can of worms with DC. However, at least one of the front runners for governor in CA has publicly stated that they will deploy the National Guard to the border if the Feds don't start doing their job....the state simply can no longer afford to stand by and do nothing....I wouldn't be surprised if the AZ governor did the same.....

 

[diceman]

Not saying you are going to flip a switch and overnight have instant success, it is going to take time to put the required boots where they are needed. But having said that, you are not going to stem the flow of illegals unless you put those boots on the ground with the Border Patrol and do some of the other economic things you are suggesting. I already said boots aren't the only answer but rather part of the equation. However the assertion that we can't stop a flood of people from flowing across our borders by using the military is nothing more than ignoring the problem and allowing it to continue.

I think we need boots on the ground while the wall is erected, and then be done with it. 15 foot razor wire topped fence running the entire length of the border, IMO. It isn't what I WANT, but it is the only thing that will STOP the illegal immigration.

I'm VERY Pro-Immigration. My wife is a LEGAL immigrant, and my son was born overseas on a US Army base (which creates a lot of paperwork hassle!). What I do NOT support is a wide open border and a flood of illegal immigrants. I don't care what the race is - which is all too often what Anti-Illegal Immigration folks are often labeled as (racists). Hell, if Canadians were flooding over the border and putting a devastating load on the system, I'd support the same thing up North.

 

[diceman]

The govenors have been very reluctant to deplay the National Guard to the borders as it could very well open up a whole can of worms with DC. However, at least one of the front runners for governor in CA has publicly stated that they will deploy the National Guard to the border if the Feds don't start doing their job....the state simply can no longer afford to stand by and do nothing....I wouldn't be surprised if the AZ governor did the same.....

Good on them. I see nothing wrong with it. (Personally, that is. There are probably procedural issues.)

 

[KSG_Standard]

Holy crap! Let's get back to basics.

Is it legal to cross the border between Mexico and the US, without going through a border checkpoint?

What is the law of the land?

Is it legal to work in the United States without showing legal paperwork...either documents that show you are a naturalized citizen or documents that show you have a work visa?

Is it legal to overstay a visa?

Who's job is it to patrol and protect the border?

Did Congress pass a law that authorized a fence to be built along the southern border?

What legal rights do illegal immigrants have in the US?

 

[diceman]

I think that most of the discussants here would also find an interest in this thread:

http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/backstage/91134-north-korean-torpedo-sank-souths-navy-ship.html

 

[CenCalPlayer]

I think that the demographic of the National Guard is generally "older" than the Active Army. In the Army, there is a LOT of turnover. Guys get in at 18, do their 3 to 6 years, and a large percentage of them get out. That is why we have so many E1-4s running around in the Active Army. Its great. In the Guard, we have a much larger percentage of people who stay in for 20 - which results in a lot of "lock up" around the rank of E4 and E5. You won't see too many 40 year old E-4s in the Active Army - but I've seen my share of them in the Guard. We had guys who had been in for 20 years as E4s, and one retired at 30 years as an E-5. Yowza.

So, on average, the Guard is older. THAT SAID, there are a whole lot of young soldiers in the Guard. My last unit was probably 40% lifers who were locking up the upper ranks, 20% were late 20s or early 30s, and a good 40% were ages 24 or younger. I haven't surveyed the entire National Guard, but this is what I observed over my 4 years in the Guard and 3 Active. And, of those young people who are in the guard, at least half of them had no college and a minimum wage job. Quite a few of the older guys in my unit were out of work oil rig workers.

I don't know where I'm going with this... just clarifying.

Don't know as it matters either, but the leadership in the Guard I have found to be very good....I know several officers in the Guard and they are top notch and very level headed....I also know a good number of guys and gals, both white and blue collar, that are enlisted ranks. Some are older like me, others are sons and daughters of friends, others are business people that I deal with, etc. I would trust any of them to have my back if need be and couldn't see any of them flying off half cocked...have worked with them on community projects and charity events and know they would defend our community, state, and country with honor....find it kind of insulting when I hear people make remarks that these fine people are somehow incapable of handling a given situation with poise and clarity of purpose....

Thanks for your service!!!

 

[needlespauls]

Do they not already pay sales taxes, gas taxes, communications tax for cell phones, etc etc etc.

Whats missing is income tax only.

Screw the taxes. NOT the issue, NOT what matters with this.
ILLEGAL is just that. ILLEGAL!!!! This shouldn't be a political issue, but it is. LAWS should be acted on. Not this soft bullshit of even debating the issue to appease the left side of the garage for more votes. Common sense is all that matters!

 

[diceman]

Don't know as it matters either, but the leadership in the Guard I have found to be very good....I know several officers in the Guard and they are top notch and very level headed....I also know a good number of guys and gals, both white and blue collar, that are enlisted ranks. Some are older like me, others are sons and daughters of friends, others are business people that I deal with, etc. I would trust any of them to have my back if need be and couldn't see any of them flying off half cocked...have worked with them on community projects and charity events and know they would defend our community, state, and country with honor....find it kind of insulting when I hear people make remarks that these fine people are somehow incapable of handling a given situation with poise and clarity of purpose....

Thanks for your service!!!

Same to you. And, likewise, I have met many great Senior NCOs and Officers in the Guard. I also think that you are more likely to get a "dud" in the Guard as compared to Active Army - because the "weeding out" process in the Army is a little better due to a larger more fluid pool, and the "good old boy" system doesn't really exist on the Active side.

 

[needlespauls]

Holy crap! Let's get back to basics.

Is it legal to cross the border between Mexico and the US, without going through a border checkpoint?

What is the law of the land?

Is it legal to work in the United States without showing legal paperwork...either documents that show you are a naturalized citizen or documents that show you have a work visa?

Is it legal to overstay a visa?

Who's job is it to patrol and protect the border?

Did Congress pass a law that authorized a fence to be built along the southern border?

What legal rights do illegal immigrants have in the US?

Agreed. Common sense is for some reason overlooked. I'm with you man.

 

[Agave_Blue]

Well glad to hear you served too....though surprised at your lack of confidence in our troops....I guess these troops are trained well enough for combat in places like Iraq but not trained well enough to patrol the border and detain or turn back illegals while assisting the Border Patrol?..... ....

When did he say he "lacked confidence". He said they weren't trained.

Yes, they may be trained well enough for combat, but not well enough for Border Patrol. It's two different kinds of mission. Just because you know how to do one, doesn't mean you know how to do the other.

It's like saying anyone trained in M&A Finance can do Accounting .

Could they be trained to perform Border Patrol functions? Yes. But are they? No.

Pehaps some of these contingency plans you refer to include a training requirment???

 

[needlespauls]

I don't know, but I'm betting you're right.

Thing is - can we afford them? We can't have them being the world's police force and ours too, in any event. Unless we crank the draft up again.

Our national resolve is deep, until we start digging into our own pockets and offering to sacrifice our own children. Then, lines get drawn.

I"ll answer the "affording" question.....
Cut all the "free stuff" programs for illegals, and focus that dough on keeping illegals OUT! Problem solved, and in many different ways!