7th Chords

[MichaelAndrew3435]

So I think it's time I teach myself some new chords. Is there a good link with a chart of all the different types of 7th chords? Also, there are 7th, major 7th, minor 7th, and dominant 7th chords, correct? I think there's one more type but those are the main ones (I think).

Lately what I've been doing is playing 1,4,5 triad chords with some occasional minor chords in between. I then solo using the major scale of the 1 chord, and the minor scale within that scale (for example, I'll use Em when in the key of G). Can 7th chords be used in the same type of way? Can I play a G7, D7, C7 type chord progression and solo over it with the G major/E minor scale? Thanks.

 

[kakao]

More importantly, you need to know all the voicing's of each of the chords .. and there are many.

 

[filtersweep]

Confused- the G major scale IS the E minor scale.

If you listen to blues, when it comes to major 7th chords, you will hear a lot of mixing of major and minor scales. It is often major over the one chord, with a slightly modified minor scale over the 4 chord, etc. You will find that one scale really won't fit everything, unless you really want to limit your note selection. I suggest approaching leads through chords, rather than a scale.

 

[JonR]

So I think it's time I teach myself some new chords. Is there a good link with a chart of all the different types of 7th chords? Also, there are 7th, major 7th, minor 7th, and dominant 7th chords, correct? I think there's one more type but those are the main ones (I think).

Take a look at the "Chords in Key" thread first, it may tell you what you need. For more...

In jazz theory, they list SIX basic types of 7th chord:

   Major 7th:  R  .  .  .  3  .  .  5  .  .  .  7  R
Dominant 7th:  R  .  .  .  3  .  .  5  .  . b7  .  R
 Tonic minor:  R  .  . b3  .  .  .  5  .  .  .  7  R
   Minor 7th:  R  .  . b3  .  .  .  5  .  . b7  .  R
      Min7b5:  R  .  . b3  .  . b5  .  .  . b7  .  R
        Dim7:  R  .  . b3  .  . b5  .  . bb7 .  .  R

You can see they're built on three kinds of triad (maj min dim), with two possible 7ths on each one (maj or min 7ths on the maj and min triads, min or dim7 on the dim triad.)

They all have standard (common) functions in major and minor keys (ignoring blues and modal jazz for the time being) as follows:

maj7 = I, IV in major key; III, VI in minor key
(dom)7 = V in major and minor key
m(maj7) = i in minor key
min7 = ii, vi and iii in major key; iv in minor key
m7b5 = ii minor key (theoretically vii in major, but very rarely used that way)
dim7 = vii in minor key, often borrowed for vii in major key

The dom7 chord - in jazz - is the most likely to have further extensions, and alterations, which fall into a few sub-types defined by their scales:
Mixolydian = 7, 9, 13, 7sus4, 9sus4, 13sus4 (V in major key, or modal chord)
Altered = 7#5#9, 7b5b9, 7b5#9, 7#5b9 (V in minor or major key)
HW dim = 7b9, 13b9 (V in minor key)
Lydian dominant = 7#11, 9#11, 13#11 (bII in minor or major key, bVII in major)
Wholetone = 9b5, 9#5 (V in major or minor key)

(If you're not playing jazz, ignore all those!)

The m7b5 chord is sometimes called "half-diminished", because it has one diminished interval (b5), while the dim7 has two (b5, bb7).

The tonic minor (m(maj7) is by far the rarest of those six, and tonic minor chords often have a 6th and/or 9th instead of a maj7. Occasionally minor tonics will have b7s, but they could be said to be "modal" chords.

Again, if you're not playing jazz, you may never encounter m7b5 chords or m(maj7) chords. And dim7s are also rare outside jazz.

Which - for rock music - leaves you with maj7, dom7 and min7. (At least as far as basic 7ths go.)

Lately what I've been doing is playing 1,4,5 triad chords with some occasional minor chords in between. I then solo using the major scale of the 1 chord, and the minor scale within that scale (for example, I'll use Em when in the key of G).

That's a meaningless distinction. In fact you're using the G major scale. If you're accenting the E note in some way, that's just the 6th of G major. You can think "E minor" all you like, it won't sound like E minor.
Naturally all patterns and modes of the scale are open, but if the key is G major, then they're all G major.

Can 7th chords be used in the same type of way? Can I play a G7, D7, C7 type chord progression and solo over it with the G major/E minor scale? Thanks.

Not exactly.
Firstly you need to understand the principle of diatonic 7ths - meaning that just as you have major and minor triads within a key (harmonised from the key scale), you also have 7ths taken from that scale, which produce different kinds of 7th chords on each step.

Taking the key of G major, you have these:
I = Gmaj7 = G major with major 7th (F#) added
ii = Am7 = Am with minor 7th (G) added
iii = Bm7 = Bm with minor 7th (A) added
IV = Cmaj7 = C with major 7th (B) added
V = D7 = D with minor 7th (C) added
vi = Em7 = Em with minor 7th (D) added
vii = F#m7b5 = F#dim with minor 7th (E) added

D7 is known as "dominant 7th", because V is the "dominant" scale degree. So D is the dominant chord, and D7 the dominant 7th.

F#m7b5 is sometimes known as F# "half-diminished", and is almost never used in key of G major, but is very common (in jazz anyway) in key of E minor. (That's a different key! )

The G major scale will fit all those chords - pretty obviously, because they're all harmonised from that scale. (Notice all the 7th notes are from the G major scale.)
...

If, however, you were to use G7 and C7 ... See next post!

 

[JonR]

If you use G7 and C7 in key of G - then you'd be playing BLUES!
G7 = G B D F
C7 = C E G Bb
F and Bb don't come from the G major scale, so that scale will sound wrong over those chords.

There are various strategies for improvising on a blues in G, and the simplest - as you may know - is to use the G minor pent over all the chords. It doesn't exactly fit any of them, but it will sound like blues, so who cares!

Alternatively, you can use a different scale on each chord (mixolydian mode of each root), but I wouldn't advise that. It's a kind of "jazz with training wheels" option, that's a bit too rigid for either blues or jazz.

A better strategy - if you want to move beyond minor pent or blues scale - is to combine blues scale with the notes in each chord: bending into the chord tones, or sliding or hammering-on to them.

Here's how that works:

G7 chord tones: G  .  .  .  B  .  .  D  .  .  F  .  G
  G minor pent: G  .  .  Bb>.  C>>>>>D  .  .  F  .  G
.
C7 chord tones: G  .  .  Bb .  C  . (9) .  E  .  .  G
  G minor pent: G  .  .  Bb .  C  .  D  .  .  F>>>>>G
.
D7 chord tones: .  .  A  .  .  C  .  D  .  .  .  F# .
  G minor pent: G>>>>>.  Bb>>>>C  .  D  .  .  F>>.  G

I've lined up all the chord tones to the G keynote, because that's always the prime reference point in blues. Notice you use the same minor pent on each chord (for this basic method), which also helps underline the tonic.

The >>> show the amount you need to bend to hit the next chord tone above (if you want to resolve the tension).
You can, of course, also pull-off to a chord tone below. And you can bend other notes if you want (eg F to G on the G7 chord is very common).

On the C chord, the D is a good note to play straight (or even bend up to from C), because it's the 9th of the chord. (Blues also has a lot of fun with that space between C and D - you can bend from C to any place between C and D, it will sound cool; except on the D7, where you really need to bend all the way to D. The Db of G blues scale represents this note, but it's usually best bent from C.)

On the D7, G minor pent is a little awkward, because only 2 notes fit exactly, and some would prefer to go for D minor pent on this chord, which replaces the Bb with A. (But don't go for C minor pent on the C, because Eb is not a note you want anywhere near a G blues. If you want to bend to the E chord tone, bend from D.)

Naturally, to make use of all this info, you need to know which notes are which on your fretboard! (in either the scale patterns or chord shapes, or ideally both.)
But equally you should be able to see on the fretboard how the minor pent scale patterns relate to the various chord shapes you're playing. (You don't need the note names if you know all your chord shapes.)
Blues is about playing with those tensions between the scale and chords. The fact it doesn't exactly fit is what gives blues its expression.

There's a great lesson from B B King himself on youtube about resolving scale notes into chord tones (in key of G), using bends etc:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVe24YFGoiM

 

[MichaelAndrew3435]

If you use G7 and C7 in key of G - then you'd be playing BLUES!
G7 = G B D F
C7 = C E G Bb
F and Bb don't come from the G major scale, so that scale will sound wrong over those chords.

There are various strategies for improvising on a blues in G, and the simplest - as you may know - is to use the G minor pent over all the chords. It doesn't exactly fit any of them, but it will sound like blues, so who cares!

Alternatively, you can use a different scale on each chord (mixolydian mode of each root), but I wouldn't advise that. It's a kind of "jazz with training wheels" option, that's a bit too rigid for either blues or jazz.

A better strategy - if you want to move beyond minor pent or blues scale - is to combine blues scale with the notes in each chord: bending into the chord tones, or sliding or hammering-on to them.

Here's how that works:

G7 chord tones: G  .  .  .  B  .  .  D  .  .  F  .  G
  G minor pent: G  .  .  Bb>.  C>>>>>D  .  .  F  .  G
.
C7 chord tones: G  .  .  Bb .  C  . (9) .  E  .  .  G
  G minor pent: G  .  .  Bb .  C  .  D  .  .  F>>>>>G
.
D7 chord tones: .  .  A  .  .  C  .  D  .  .  .  F# .
  G minor pent: G>>>>>.  Bb>>>>C  .  D  .  .  F>>.  G

I've lined up all the chord tones to the G keynote, because that's always the prime reference point in blues. Notice you use the same minor pent on each chord (for this basic method), which also helps underline the tonic.

The >>> show the amount you need to bend to hit the next chord tone above (if you want to resolve the tension).
You can, of course, also pull-off to a chord tone below. And you can bend other notes if you want (eg F to G on the G7 chord is very common).

On the C chord, the D is a good note to play straight (or even bend up to from C), because it's the 9th of the chord. (Blues also has a lot of fun with that space between C and D - you can bend from C to any place between C and D, it will sound cool; except on the D7, where you really need to bend all the way to D. The Db of G blues scale represents this note, but it's usually best bent from C.)

On the D7, G minor pent is a little awkward, because only 2 notes fit exactly, and some would prefer to go for D minor pent on this chord, which replaces the Bb with A. (But don't go for C minor pent on the C, because Eb is not a note you want anywhere near a G blues. If you want to bend to the E chord tone, bend from D.)

Naturally, to make use of all this info, you need to know which notes are which on your fretboard! (in either the scale patterns or chord shapes, or ideally both.)
But equally you should be able to see on the fretboard how the minor pent scale patterns relate to the various chord shapes you're playing. (You don't need the note names if you know all your chord shapes.)
Blues is about playing with those tensions between the scale and chords. The fact it doesn't exactly fit is what gives blues its expression.

There's a great lesson from B B King himself on youtube about resolving scale notes into chord tones (in key of G), using bends etc:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVe24YFGoiM

When I play over a progression in G, D, and C, I usually use the G major scale to solo over it and it sounds good as long as my timing is on point. I know the G major scale very well and can play it all over the fretboard.

If I'm playing a G7, D7, C7 progression, would a G minor scale be more appropriate? Forgive me for my lack of musical knowledge. I ended my lessons right when me and my teacher started talking about 7th chords and chord building.

 

[MichaelAndrew3435]

More importantly, you need to know all the voicing's of each of the chords .. and there are many.

Forgive me for my lack of music vocabulary, but what exactly do you mean by the voicing of each chord?

 

[cowsgomoo]

If I'm playing a G7, D7, C7 progression, would a G minor scale be more appropriate? Forgive me for my lack of musical knowledge. I ended my lessons right when me and my teacher started talking about 7th chords and chord building.

Try it. Listen to what the 7 different notes from the G minor scale sound like over each of those chords, and use your ear to decide what notes work and which don't. Your ear should always be the main way you decide whether something is appropriate. Always.

There are a few things that dictate what notes feel appropriate over certain chords. Firstly, you've got the chord that's sounding at that particular moment e.g. a G7. The most 'correct' sounding notes will be the ones from the chord - G, B, D and F. The next most 'correct' notes are often those that aren't in the chord but are a whole tone or more distant from any chord tones, in this case, A. Then you might find that notes 1 semitone below any chord tones sound like they might work (or at least, sound like they could go somewhere in a pleasing way): F#, Bb, C# and E. The remaining notes: Ab, C, Eb will probably sound least suitable, since they're all 1 semitone sharper than particular chord tones. This is what I've found to be true for me, though playing and listening

But (secondly) since chords don't exist in isolation, and are nearly always part of a sequence, the harmonic context also informs your sense of whether a particular note is right. So, a G7 played as part of a G major blues progression (i.e. a progression that probably uses G7, C7 and D7), is in a very different context to a G7 played as part of a progression in the key of C minor (i.e. Cm, Bb, Ab, G7). Try whipping out a C# in the latter case, and you'll have your work cut out making it stick convincingly

Thirdly, there's another context you're dealing with - the melodic context i.e. How appropriate your chosen note sounds between all the other notes you're playing. You might have an ugly or inappropriate sounding note, but if you follow it up with a sweeter sounding one, you've created tension and release, which is what you need to create interest, drama, excitement etc. I guarantee you, I could play all 12 notes over a G7 chord in 2-3 bars, and make it work by resolving the tense notes suitably. A subtle, slinky slide from Eb to D over G7 is very different to blaring out a sustained Eb on the first beat of the bar...

Also, if you're making a melodic statement that the listener can follow, you can often contradict the harmonic climate for a brief time (although its a good idea to meet back up with it eventually), since the inner logic and momentum of your melody can make enough sense in isolation, despite what the chords are doing, to work

Last (but not least), the style of music and the established melodic vocabulary will dictate how suitable certain notes are. In blues or jazz, you can make all kinds of chromatic resolutions that noone will bat an eyelid at, as those kinds of melodic things are expected. In rock, there can be other expectations of appropriateness...

Hope this has given a few things to think about. Just remember if it sounds good to you, then it IS good, and you should try things out by playing and listening, and THEN working out the theory behind it. It's far easier than doing it the other way round

 

[JonR]

Forgive me for my lack of music vocabulary, but what exactly do you mean by the voicing of each chord?

It's the order the chord tones go in, from bottom to top, and how far apart they are.
IOW, to a guitarist, it's more or less the same thing as a "shape".
(But we can usually play the same voicings in different shapes, if they don't include all the strings - see below.)

Each note in a chord is known as a "voice", so you can think of each string as one "voice" (imagine your guitar is a 6-person choir!).

Each string will have a different chord tone on it (or the same chord tone in a different octave), but different shapes (for the same chord) will have those notes in different vertical orders - which changes the sound of the chord.

Eg, you know this shape:
-0- = E = 3
-1- = C = R
-0- = G = 5
-2- = E = 3
-3- = C = R
-x-

That's a "close-voiced root position" (R-3-5) C triad (C-E-G) on strings 5-4-3; plus a doubled root and 3rd above that.
"Close-voiced" means there's no room for other chord tones between the ones given.

This is an "open-voiced" C triad (still in root position):
-0- E
-x-
-0- G
-x-
-3- C
-x-
You can see that there's missing potential chord tones in the gaps. And you can hear how the chord sounds different!

Here's the same voicing in a different shape (they're not always the same thing!):
-x-
-5- E
-x-
-5- G
-3- C
---

Or you could use this voicing:
-3- G
-5- E
-5- C
-5- G
-3- C
---

Now the chord has two Gs and only one E. And also there's a 5th between the bottom two notes, making it more "open" in the bass. Again, same chord, different voicing, different sound. (This time the top 3 strings give a close-voice root position triad, with 5th and root doubled below.)

...

A related term to "voicing" is inversion, and the two are sometimes confused. "Inversion" means the root of the chord is not the lowest note - the 3rd, 5th or 7th is in the bass. But above that bass note, the other notes can still go in any order - any "voicing".

Voicings are sometimes described as "drop 2 or "drop 3". This usually only applies to 7th chords, and means taking a close voicing, and lowering either the 2nd or 3rd note from the top by an octave.
Most guitar shapes are some kind of drop voicing, because it's impossible (or very difficult) to play most 7th chords in close voicing.

Eg, here's a close-voiced D7 chord "in 2nd inversion" (5th of chord on the bottom):
------
-7---- F# = 3
-7---- D = R
-10--- C = 7
-12--- A = 5
------
Awkward, right? (easy for a pianist - one-handed! - not for us.)
To make that more practical we "drop the 2" - i.e. we take the D and lower it by an octave, giving us this shape:
----
-7-- F# = 3
-5-- C = 7
-7-- A = 5
-5-- D = R
----
or indeed this one
-2-- F# = 3
-1-- C = 7
-2-- A = 5
-0-- D = R
----
----
Easier, huh? Now we have a root position voicing, of course (D on bottom), with a wide gap (musically speaking) between D and A (missing 3rd) and wide gap between C and F# (root missing).

Root position close-voiced G7 chord:
-1- F
-3- D
-4- B
-5- G
---
---
Drop 2 voicing:
-1- F
-0- B
-0- G
-0- D
---
---
A "drop 3" voicing of the same chord (taking the B down an octave) would be;
-1- F
-3- D
-0- G
-x-
-2- B
---

The fact that not all voicings are equally accessible on guitar means that consideration of voicings is not too important for guitarists. The difference in sound between "open" and "close" can often be worth considering, but often we have no choice about the shapes we play - or rather other factors tend to determine our choice (such as which notes to leave out, or how to factor in "voice-leading" between shapes).

It's one of those topics that's more relevant to arrangers (eg putting horn sections together) than it is to guitar players. Inversions may be more useful to know about!
But even then, if playing with a bassist, the bass note determines the effective inversion sound that emerges.
Eg, we might play a root position C chord, but if the bassist plays an E (below our bottom C), then that makes a "1st inversion" chord.

If you were a solo chord-melody player, then both inversions and voicings (within practical limits!) would form part of your thinking and how you arranged tunes.
Eg, one reason for choosing drop 2 voicings (when you can) is that it makes the top note stand out more. That can be useful if playing melodies as the top notes of your chords, which chord melody players normally do.