61 les paul 61 SG...whats the difference?

Tim Plains

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So, you're telling me Gibson is just setting up their Custom Shop guitars and charging an extra $1,000 - $3,000 for them? :laugh2:
 

TattooedCarrot

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Different headstock, body bevels, neck shape, pickups (on the more recent model historic), neck tenon, neck joint. Lots of subtle differences. I have both....actually I just sold the historic last week and kept the 61RI.

Historic Headstock
Current&


Historic neck joint
5bf84900.jpg


Historic
IMG_7731.jpg



61RI
15dfadef.jpg
 

Tim Plains

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Very nice, Carrot! That '61 looks like it has a two piece body; so, I guess that is one of the differences. Not sure if they're all like that, though...:hmm:
 

shtdaprdtr

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thanks TC..thats what I wanted to know...thanks for the pics too.
 

shtdaprdtr

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"So, you're telling me Gibson is just setting up their Custom Shop guitars and charging an extra $1,000 - $3,000 for them? "

R9...why not...if people are willing to pay
thats what makes a successful business and marketing people. I work for a fine instrument company that makes instruments upwards of 100grand...I cannot tell you the name, but believe me, if you saw the crap people are paying big money for...youd be surprised..nothing special..just some decoration and a name.
Explain to me 2 things
1: Why do silver topped reflector knobs go for over a hundred bucks while the gold topped ones go for 10 bucks...
Its called supply and demand. Is the silver topped knob that much superior?
2: Explain to me the whole price justification of the eddie van halen guitar? I built an exact replica..for myself of course for just 2-300 bucks...heres mine:
DSCF0520.jpg

DSCF0519.jpg
 

shtdaprdtr

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What I was trying to say is that mine is not too far off so I know the labor involved and its not worth 25 grand for the EVH.
Its all marketing so Im just trying to let people know its not as they say..I know first hand from the company I work for.
 

shtdaprdtr

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sorry for the fuzzy pics.. camera does that without flash
 

dwagar

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if it's close enough for you, and you don't want to drop the coin on a CS, then what's the problem? It's still a great guitar.
 

geochem1st

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I got one very good question....as far as tone goes. If any custom shop is so great...then why did eddie van halen create one of rocks greatest tones from a crap guitar which was a 2 piece ash second body with knots?
and why is the custom shop replica 25K?


2: Explain to me the whole price justification of the eddie van halen guitar? I built an exact replica..for myself of course for just 2-300 bucks...heres mine:

I can't see the pics you posted but I am assuming that it is a copy of the Frankenstrat.

1st lets keep things real, you could not of built an exact copy of that for $300:

The boy was using a real PAF, which goes for almost $3000 today alone.

"The Frankenstrat is an Ash Stratocaster body with a routing that Eddie made to fit in a Gibson PAF humbucking bridge pickup, with a single coil neck pickup. The neck pickup was simply for decoration and was never actually wired with the humbucker, due to Eddie's inability to wire the switch properly. It has a maple neck, silver hardware, and red, black, and white stripes. It is a six string guitar with Floyd Rose tremolo."

Frankenstrat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And to help with his tone he overdrove the voltage to his Marshall using a variac, not recommended because it blows out the amps real fast.
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shtdaprdtr

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Whats your point..the CS EVH is a duncan pickup..not a real PAF. I have a PAF from the early 60's that Im waiting for that special guitar to put in...which I could easily drop in my replica If I wanted..I have a northern ash body on mine which is the same as eddies and my neck is maple...I used a duncan custom for the bridge (with some wax residue from trying eddies same method) to avoid feedback.
Everyones missing my point here...people are blasting me about how the custom shop stuff is soooo much better and worth the price but yet noone has proved why?
 

geochem1st

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Whats your point..the CS EVH is a duncan pickup..not a real PAF. I have a PAF from the early 60's that Im waiting for that special guitar to put in...which I could easily drop in my replica If I wanted..I have a northern ash body on mine which is the same as eddies and my neck is maple...I used a duncan custom for the bridge (with some wax residue from trying eddies same method) to avoid feedback.
Everyones missing my point here...people are blasting me about how the custom shop stuff is soooo much better and worth the price but yet noone has proved why?

My point is that there are a lot of pieces to the 'tone chain'. First yes having a real PAF is one of them, second is that you overdrive your Marshall with a variac, third is that you play like Eddie :)

Then you stand a chance of duplicating his 'tone'. Also, no one can 'prove' why CS's are better, its up to your criteria of what is better.... if YOU don't hear the difference with your ears, which is ok, then fine, others find them worth the money.
 

shtdaprdtr

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I understand the whole concept of the tone chain....my question was why am I being blasted for saying the whole CS concept is full of crap for claiming they carefully select perfect tonewoods for building their instruments and that they are far superior...I honestly believe they just pick prettier tops for their LP's or strats or whatever...tonally..its all the same (because of the other factors you mentioned)...the rest is marketing
 

geochem1st

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Well because tours of the Gibson Factory have been made. You can see what wood is being used in the Custom Shop, its not just pretty tops. I personally believe that wood matters, look at a Stradivarius violin. Wood influences tone, that difference in tone can be heard in different guitars, as with other wooden instruments. We can start there.

Other factors will affect tone as you know. But as with any chain, it is only as strong as the weakest link. So the goal is to maximize your strengths, get the best sounding equipment possible (notice I didn't say most expensive), pickups, cable, amp. Then the only factor you can blame for not having the right tone is yourself - your touch, as the weakest link.

There is marketing involved with everything. We just had this discussion in the Vintage Gibsons section about proving whether or not a 1959 LP is really special or not.
What if the question was put to you. Prove that the CS guitars are NOT so much better.
You really can't. What is the criteria that you judge by?
 

dwagar

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Eddie would sound like Eddie on a Hello Kitty Strat. Means nothing, other than us mortals can't do that.
 

Tim Plains

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I'm slowly building a guitar, the end result will sort of look like a LP Jr; so, I know that it costs only a few hundred dollars to make a guitar. After all...it's just wood and some wires, right? And if you're a company as huge as Gibson, the actual cost of materials would be much less since you're buying in bulk.

My question to you shtdaprdtr is...why did you buy a '59 reissue Les Paul if it's all the same? My solid '59 LP reissue weighs 8 lbs 3 oz. My LP Custom with nine fairly large holes drilled out of the mahogany weighs just under 10 lbs. Explain that one...

It's one of the things you pay a premium for. This picture related to Custom Shop LPs has been posted numerous times. So, one of the things you're paying for is the few(er) pieces of wood that meet these requirements. If you think it's all B.S. that's great...it's your opinion and you're entitled to it...but the fact that you bought one yourself makes me wonder. If it's all the same to you, why even bother buying a Gibson in the first place and stick with Epiphones?

Cheers.

GibsonLPWeights.jpg
 

shtdaprdtr

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I bought it because I believed in the marketing hype at one point and couldnt find out myself until I owned one. Yes I bought one because its prettier than any other I can buy (intentionally) from the regular line. but tonally, Ive got a horrible looking 83 standard I outfitted with burstbuckers that has a tone characteristic much more to my liking...all 300 pounds of it..with the nasty 3 piece top. vintage and overdrive tones are all there..yeah my R9 feels nice and resonates...but that can be achieved with longer studs and so on...which does not cost an extra couple grand......as far as factory tours...yeah, my company does that too..what does that tell you?...you just see people working..that doesnt prove all the changes they made are worth thousands more...I just bought a 42"X7"X2.25" thick billet of curly eastern maple to build my own les pauls...I paid $30 and I could build 2 les paul tops from them...to justify the cost it should have cost Gibson about a thousand dollars for that piece of wood....and if thats the case explain to me the plaintops? Why are they just as pricey...because a half inch longer tenon is really worth thousands more...The boards arent even Brazilian but yet the prices for the new R9's are more than they were a few years ago....explain that. Believe me, I love my R9 but if the only way im gonna get a guitar I like is to pay 5Gs because of consumer demand..then thats tough shit for me...I choose to build the rest of mine after I figured out the cost and the fact that I am able to.
 

shtdaprdtr

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as far as wood affecting tone....The wood only colors the tone and maybe aids in sustain...all the tone comes from the pickups, fingers and amp. I have a les paul that after I coil tap it..sounds like a strat...side by side it will sound a little beefier than a strat..but on its own it will sound like a strat...perfect example how the older Epis were made of alder (strat wood of choice)and yet with humbuckers..they sounded like LP's..yes put it next to an R9..the R9 will have slightly more character..but 80% of the tone is there in the pickups...which explains why my 800 pound 83 standard kicks ass with uncovered burstbuckers and a newer nashville bridge. Funny thing is...I read in a book about Les Pauls..forgot which one..dont know if its beauty of the burst or whatever,but Tec McCarty was quoted as saying the plaintops always sounded better...something about the flame being a disease in the wood that slightly hampers the resonance...yet we all including myself want a flametop because we saw Jimmy with it or Billy Gibbons, Peter Green or in my case Slash playing one...and I paid 5Gs cause that was the thing to have...its "magical" or whatever.
 

shtdaprdtr

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beautiful guitar......sure
worth thousands....no
Brazilian board LPs are going for $6-$8,500 which I saw recently in vintage guitar magazine
Yet I could buy a brazilian board PRS for 4,200
Now as much as I hate PRS...noone can deny the fact that they are superior in build quality to any Gibson custom shop...I know firsthand.
They have the flame tops, the Mahogany, and they have long neck tenons that go even further than Gibsons..not to mention PRS just bought the old original pickup wire machines from the 50's which makes them even closer to the golden age of guitars than Gibsons custom shop ever could. Too bad PRS's are goofy and have cheesy artists like Mark Tremonti endorsing them...the only legends they have are Carlos Santana and Howard Leese but they are B-list compared to Page and Hendrix and etc...
and thats why..even though theyre pricey, theyll never have the same purist respect as Gibson or Fender.
 

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