50s wiring question.

Gabriel

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I put the cap between the output lug of the volume pot and the input lug of the tone pot and soldered the output lug of the tone pot to the pot body. Previously the cap was between the output of the tone pot and the tone-pot-body.

When I posted a pic of the cavity everyone told me that this was 50s wiring. Although now this sounds massively more beefy, with less treble and more groan. And I am not sure that it's the tone cap alone that did that. In fact when I removed my stock tone caps and played the guitar I didn't feel a difference at all. This LP always sounded too bright to me.

Here's before and after. I have moved the white wire to the middle lug of the volume pot as I was told here

51yijk.jpg

Why is the difference in what I am hearing so dramatic? (In this case much better).

Excuse the poor soldering. I plan to rewire the guitar entirely in the weekend. :)
 

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Batman

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It's hard to tell from the photo's. . .

Is there a ground connection from the wiper (middle lug) of the tone pot to the back of their case?

This connection needs to be there to complete the circuit.

The .022 caps should give you a little more clarity when you roll off the tone but it shouldn't give you the effect you are describing.
 

Gabriel

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Yup. Both the mid lugs are now soldered on the tone casing.

Previously one side of the cap was one the middle lug and the casing.

I wonder if the difference is because the cap on the case of the pot whereas now it is before the input.

In any case the sound is a lot more clear now when I roll the volume off. It actually behaves like a volume pot now. Before it made the sound muddy.
 

MrRhoads

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You have braided wire which ads conductance and shifts the resonance peak of the pickups, therefore darker sound
 

Gabriel

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I did have it with the previous caps as well though. Had these antiquities a long time.
 

Mookakian

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You have braided wire which ads conductance and shifts the resonance peak of the pickups, therefore darker sound

Not really:shock: It just takes any interference to ground, nothing to do with the signal ;)

The tone change is due to both the cap and wiring change, PIO will give a more rounded/full feel and 50's does as you describe, more clarity when you roll off and i notice a little more woody tone as well, especially when you pull the tone back. Glad you found an improved tone to your ears op :thumb:
 

Gabriel

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Well I am really liking the difference. I am just trying to figure whether there is a difference between having the cap before the input of the pot or havig it soldered on the ground. On the original thread about 50's wiring I was told its the same but every 50s kit I see sold by Martin, Jonesy, Steve or RS guitars seems to be wired the way I've done it this time.

The mid lug of my volume pot was connected to the lower lug of the tone pot. The only change was the cap itself and it being between the pots rather than soldered between the pot and the ground.
 

MrRhoads

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Where'd you come up with that one?

I changed all the wire in my Les Paul a couple of years ago from normal insulated wire which contains alot less conductive metal and noticed a big change with darker and duller sound, so teared out the braided wire and put back normal insulated wire which is alot thinner and the sound was clearer and brighter and again.

"AND NO I DIDN´T MESS UP THE WIRING"
 

Mookakian

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Well I am really liking the difference. I am just trying to figure whether there is a difference between having the cap before the input of the pot or havig it soldered on the ground. On the original thread about 50's wiring I was told its the same but every 50s kit I see sold by Martin, Jonesy, Steve or RS guitars seems to be wired the way I've done it this time.

The mid lug of my volume pot was connected to the lower lug of the tone pot. The only change was the cap itself and it being between the pots rather than soldered between the pot and the ground.

For 50's wiring you need to run the cap from the output lug (middle) as you have it now.

If you run from the signal input lug on the tone pot (outside left looking at the bottom of the pot) you have a version of modern wiring, the knobs interact differently and as you describe, highs are lost as you roll off, no a bad set up for super bright amps and it does have its perks, its a matter of how you use the controls really... personally i prefer 50's wiring :)

This altered modern set up is sometimes best used with a bleed cap across the left and middle vol pot lugs, you will need to trial a few values before you get the highs to stay consistent as you roll off volume, but generally between .001 and .005uf for the bleed cap, for most buckers, usually .001/.002 in my experience.

Though i still prefer 50's, it just has something i like ;)
 

Mookakian

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Rhoads, maybe the braided was touching one of the cap legs when you put the cover on...i dont know, but that should'nt happen. :-/ Anything is possible
 

David Collins

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I'm still confused as to what this discussion is about. The pictures are of different wiring arrangements, different caps, and what appears to be different pickups. There is mention of moving the white wire to the center volume lug, but there is no white wire to speak of in the "after" picture. Did you say you initially removed the original caps entirely (leaving the tone pots non-functional) and not notice any difference? There's so much that leaves me wondering what you changed at what point, and at what stages you did or did not notice a difference? And are we talking about the tone with the controls on 10 or rolled back at all? There are just so many changes thrown in to one bucket here, I'm not really sure which are being discussed.

My gut feeling from what I can gather so far is either that a lot of things were changed at once, or something was terribly wrong (shorted contacts or cold solder joints) at some stage in this process.

Edit - I reread it and think you are talking about hearing a change just when you moved the cap connection from the outer to the center volume lug. If this is the issue, your observation of how it stays more clear as you roll back the volume is pretty much normal and to be expected. If you noticed a difference when the volume was at 10, then you likely had other issues which may have went unnoticed in the prior wiring, as this change can only have any possible effect when the volume is rolled down.
 

Mookakian

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Yeah, I think he was trying to get a grib on what 50's wiring really is David :) Correct OP?
 

Gabriel

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Edit - I reread it and think you are talking about hearing a change just when you moved the cap connection from the outer to the center volume lug. If this is the issue, your observation of how it stays more clear as you roll back the volume is pretty much normal and to be expected. If you noticed a difference when the volume was at 10, then you likely had other issues which may have went unnoticed in the prior wiring, as this change can only have any possible effect when the volume is rolled down.

Exactly. :thumb: No difference when the volume was at 10 but from nine and downwards completely different behavior! With no cap and under 10 on the tone pot it just acted as a secondary volume pot (that is to be expected I guess).

Yeah, I think he was trying to get a grib on what 50's wiring really is David :) Correct OP?

Yup. Electrically. :)

In my previous thread I was told that there is no difference whether the capacitor is before the input of the tone pot or grounded on it. Apparently there's a world of a difference so I wondered if both these configurations qualified as "50's wiring".
 

ACELUEK

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Where'd you come up with that one?

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing.. When I spent several (6 years - working/going to school) years in college getting my BS :)laugh2:) in Electrical Engineering I learned that shielding was to keep noise out of the low voltage wires.
 

David Collins

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Well now you're being told it again. There is no difference whether the capacitor is between to tone and volume pots, vs tone lug to ground. The only thing that makes any difference between "50's wiring" and "modern wiring" is which lug of the volume pot the tone is connected to. It's output loading vs coil loading, and it changes the way the volume and tone interact as the volume is rolled back, and that's all there is to it.
 

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