2017 True Historic Specifications / Year 2017 Historic Specifications

[kewl kat]

2017 True Historic Specifications / Year 2017 Historic Specifications

As is seen I am pretty new here. However, I have been a long time LP longer and lurker.

I have been a pretty consistent reader for the past several years, and could have easily

missed it, but I was wondering about the specifications of the 2107 TH, both in relation

to the other two TH years, but also to the 2017 Historic line (or "non-historic" Standard line),

if you will. Are we looking at the same specifications as TH '15 - '16, or are they a derivation

(reportedly) like other 2017 dated Historics, where most models follow the Carmelita neck

form? Any other information you have regarding body carve, bindings, finish, etc would be

welcomed, as well as any other valid tid bits regarding 2017 Carmelita knowledge as it applies

to all '54 - '59 Historics. Thanks again, and I look forward to chiming in more in the future.

P.S. I don't want to lessen any of the great in house models (CME, Wildwood, etc), but would

appreciate the focus to be on what the Gibson Custom Shop was producing for TH and

Historics for the 2017 year.

 

[calieng]

2015-2106 True Historics hand rubbed finishes and select woods.

Post 2016 had True Historic plastics and the slightly smaller neck carve but regular finish and regular wood selection.

That's about as simple as I could put it. Of course there are gems and dogs amongst all years.

 

[Subterfuge]

I thought the TH Pickguard stickers were only on the 2017 special artist models ?? the Slash First Standard and the Mick Ralphs both had the TH Specs stickers, not sure about any other 2017 models ... The sticker states : Genuine '59 top profile and period-correct lacquer, Hot hide-glued top, neck and fingerboard and Vintage-accurate reproduction parts ...I own the Slash model and can 100% say that all the plastics are TH, great quality, but as for the other construction details I have no idea ...

 

[calieng]

The True Historics in 2015 and 2016 had a special build process while the standard models of those years had a short neck tenon and regular build process.

In 2017 they went back to the standard build process and dropped the short neck tenon models while retaining the True Historic plastics.

That is to generalize and then there is CC models which receive a whole other degree of attention.

A few 2016 True Historics were left over and sold as 2017 models but only a very few.

That at least is my understanding of it.

The True Historic plastics are retained to this day including some improvements such as a more accurate truss rod cover. But the guitars are not "True Historic". That was only 2015-2016. Now they are "Muphy Lab".

 

[calieng]

I also did an extensive internet search since you posted this early afternoon but could not locate any information to confirm what you stated.

Did you also get this information direct from Gibson?

OK. Don't believe me then. Next time I will just ignore your questions.

 

[pmonk]

Why it's so complicated? 2017 Gibson reissues

Hey, I am reading and analyzing threads about Gibson reissues from 2017. There is a lot of a mess in it, so I wanted to confirm if everything is correct and I understand it. The main differences between 2017 reissues and True Historics are: - Double-carved neck - Double-carved body - Kind...

www.mylespaul.com

 

[Subterfuge]

check out the Post by treyrab, Oct 25, 2018 ... FS: Tom Murphy Painted & Aged '59 Les Paul- #7/100, 8.2 , killer Top ..... super high-end run of 2017 Murphy's .... different top-carve of TM's choosing specifically for this run, SKU CSLPSTDPSL11089 .... there are a hundred pictures of these guitars online, half with the TH sticker and half without .... I noticed the Wildwood photos show one with the pickguard stickers ... could that sticker have been at the request of dealers ??? who knows .... point being, there seems to be no rhyme or reason behind which 2017's got these stickers and which didn't

 

[mudface]

Seems like a valid question, right, regarding both your responses? Where did you get your information from? Was it from Gibson?

Obviously I opened this topic to get some definitive information, since I was not able to find much specific information myself about the questions I posed, or there would have been no need. Not trying to be a smart arse here, at all, but there is a lot of misinformation out there regarding 2017 year CS guitars (Historic, or what is called Standard, and TH) in general. No one seems to be able to describe how they got their information, other than the sales manager I talked to who spoke to the Gibson CS shop directly. And I posed other questions other than what he answered, that I was hoping to get valid information about.

What info that @calieng has giving is factual.... you want confirmation of these facts then contact Gibson directly yourself.

 

[kewl kat]

What info that @calieng has giving is factual.... you want confirmation of these facts then contact Gibson directly yourself.

Please tell me what information that he gave me that is factual in his 3 posts?

You yourself contradicted much of what he said in the provided link: https://www.mylespaul.com/threads/why-its-so-complicated-2017-gibson-reissues.423048/page-2

As far as telling me what to do, though I am a newer poster, who exactly put you in charge? Is your goal to chase new people away? I asked for help finding valid information, and I will decide when and what I want to do, and how I go about doing so. Since you appear to know it all, with inside information, why don't you provide the the board a kind service and get this definitive information from Gibson. I am certain that I would not be the only one applauding.

 

[mudface]

Please tell me what information that he gave me that is factual in his 3 posts?

You yourself contradicted much of what he said in the provided link: https://www.mylespaul.com/threads/why-its-so-complicated-2017-gibson-reissues.423048/page-2

As far as telling me what to do, though I am a newer poster, who exactly put you in charge? Is your goal to chase new people away? I asked for help finding valid information, and I will decide when and what I want to do, and how I go about doing so. Since you appear to know it all, with inside information, why don't you provide the the board a kind service and get this definitive information from Gibson. I am certain that I would not be the only one applauding.

However you interpret my post is your own perception...... I’m not running you off or threatening you in any regard.

You find information provided to you as questionable and demand confirmation.... why can’t you do your own leg work instead of insulting others for not providing it for you.

Who the fuck do you think you are amigo ?

 

[mudface]

My opinion is...... and this is my opinion based solely on your replies.... is that you are a pretentious ass who believes you are entitled to some sort of satisfaction as if I am here to provide you some kind of service.... you are unfortunately wrong..... amigo.

 

[DanD]

The True Historics in 2015 and 2016 had a special build process while the standard models of those years had a short neck tenon and regular build process.

In 2017 they went back to the standard build process and dropped the short neck tenon models while retaining the True Historic plastics.

That is to generalize and then there is CC models which receive a whole other degree of attention.

A few 2016 True Historics were left over and sold as 2017 models but only a very few.

That at least is my understanding of it.

The True Historic plastics are retained to this day including some improvements such as a more accurate truss rod cover. But the guitars are not "True Historic". That was only 2015-2016. Now they are "Muphy Lab".

That's all kinds of wrong...

'17 was a split year. The early half of the year saw Gibson repurpose just about every guitar they had in Nashville that wasn't sold to a dealer.

The 1st part of the year has TH models w/hand sanded finishes and all TH spec. The differences in finish were minute. Gibson lightened the use of toner in the clear coats. This can clearly be seen by comparing the Gibson logo on the headstock of 17 THs to 15 and 16 THs.

In April/May custom had a big shake up. It's said Henry never wanted to hear the word "Historic" again. At that point heads started to roll at custom and the whole TH line became "Standards".

As to the short tenon nonsense that ain't right. Standardl spec historics were made thru '15 with '14 serial numbers and in '16 Gibson just kept making '14 spec Rs but they denoted them by putting an R in the front of the serial. So '16s w/'14 specs have a serial like this 'R9 6543' for an R9. TH have the typical 9 6123 style serial we see today.

There was a short tenon R model for '15 that was supposed to be the entry level Historic with TH being the top tier. The short tenon '15s were as much as the older '14 R models and dealers just said no thanks, but we'll order more '14 spec Rs... Very few short tenon '15s were made and those serials are also differentiated with letters like the '16 'R' models.

A '17 TH has all the same specs as a '15 or '16. The only difference is that '17s were only a partial year and the lightened toner. At the time some thought the toner was a little much. The toner was debated in this forum in '15. Gibson lightened it for '17 so maybe these forums have some sway.

 

[mudface]

That's all kinds of wrong...

'17 was a split year. The early half of the year saw Gibson repurpose just about every guitar they had in Nashville that wasn't sold to a dealer.

The 1st part of the year has TH models w/hand sanded finishes and all TH spec. The differences in finish were minute. Gibson lightened the use of toner in the clear coats. This can clearly be seen by comparing the Gibson logo on the headstock of 17 THs to 15 and 16 THs.

In April/May custom had a big shake up. It's said Henry never wanted to hear the word "Historic" again. At that point heads started to roll at custom and the whole TH line became "Standards".

As to the short tenon nonsense that ain't right. Standardl spec historics were made thru '15 with '14 serial numbers and in '16 Gibson just kept making '14 spec Rs but they denoted them by putting an R in the front of the serial. So '16s w/'14 specs have a serial like this 'R9 6543' for an R9. TH have the typical 9 6123 style serial we see today.

There was a short tenon R model for '15 that was supposed to be the entry level Historic with TH being the top tier. The short tenon '15s were as much as the older '14 R models and dealers just said no thanks, but we'll order more '14 spec Rs... Very few short tenon '15s were made and those serials are also differentiated with letters like the '16 'R' models.

A '17 TH has all the same specs as a '15 or '16. The only difference is that '17s were only a partial year and the lightened toner. At the time some thought the toner was a little much. The toner was debated in this forum in '15. Gibson lightened it for '17 so maybe these forums have some sway.

Actually the short tenon models had a CS prefix in the serial number ..... the 14 spec long tenon models became the R prefix 2016 Standards.

The 2017 THs were spec like the 2015 except they dropped the wet sanding process.

 

[DanD]

I forgot what the prefix was mud. Thanks!

I did say they had letters in the serial tho.

'17 is confusing. Gibson was in turmoil and Henry must've known the axe was coming down.

Custom used to make guitars, then sell those guitars to dealers. At the beginning of '17 they had hundreds of unsold guitars at Custom. Most TH, sigs, and CCs.

Krieger LPs were repurposed, CC 29s were repurposed, many think unsold Ace's became Reeder's.

When the 'Standard' line came out Gibson storpped pre-making guitars and started requiring dealers to pre-order.

TH was more labor intensive due to the double carve neck and top (2 passes and 2 CNC set ups), the hand sanded finish and rolled binding.

So, halfway thru the year manufacturing was streamlined. No more double passes on the the CNC which only helped to maintain consistency by reducing hand sanding. No more hand sanded finishes, and to my left hand, no more rolled binding. If they are still rolling the binding is no where near what was being done prior to the release of the "Standard" line.

My later '17 and newer Rs feel closer to my older '14 Rs than to my THs and CCs. The newer ones did keep all the TH plastics and pup covers tho.

The rolled binding isn't a deal breaker for me. It's really just a nice touch I wish they'd bring back.

 

[mudface]

I forgot what the prefix was mud. Thanks!

I did say they had letters in the serial tho.

'17 is confusing. Gibson was in turmoil and Henry must've known the axe was coming down.

Custom used to make guitars, then sell those guitars to dealers. At the beginning of '17 they had hundreds of unsold guitars at Custom. Most TH, sigs, and CCs.

Krieger LPs were repurposed, CC 29s were repurposed, many think unsold Ace's became Reeder's.

When the 'Standard' line came out Gibson storpped pre-making guitars and started requiring dealers to pre-order.

TH was more labor intensive due to the double carve neck and top (2 passes and 2 CNC set ups), the hand sanded finish and rolled binding.

So, halfway thru the year manufacturing was streamlined. No more double passes on the the CNC which only helped to maintain consistency by reducing hand sanding. No more hand sanded finishes, and to my left hand, no more rolled binding. If they are still rolling the binding is no where near what was being done prior to the release of the "Standard" line.

My later '17 and newer Rs feel closer to my older '14 Rs than to my THs and CCs. The newer ones did keep all the TH plastics and pup covers tho.

The rolled binding isn't a deal breaker for me. It's really just a nice touch I wish they'd bring back.

Yup.... Mr Hanky was taking a huge loss with the 2015 regular production USA models when sales sunk..... he decided to make up for it by ransacking the Historic department by firing the people who created it.... and cutting costs and raising prices to the point of collapse. Luckily the instruments didn’t suffer except the CS Standard.. the winners are those who got those repurposed CCs at a fraction of the costs. There were good finds to be had.

 

[DanD]

I was lucky enough to score 2 repurposed '17s. A CC29 and an aged TH R8. I still have CC29. It's the best deal I've ever gotten from Wilwood.

The aged '58 was an even better deal from Private Reseve.

Wildwood had a repurposed Krieger VOS @8.3 pounds and .87 @ the 1st fret. I still kick myself for not snatching that one up. It was gone the next day...

The repurposed Hinson CC Special and Goldfinger CCs were everywhere for a hot minute but Gibson really hacked up the aging on the Goldfinger and other aged CCs. I thought those repurposed CCs were atrocious.

 

[mudface]

I was lucky enough to score 2 repurposed '17s. A CC29 and an aged TH R8. I still have CC29. It's the best deal I've ever gotten from Wilwood.

The aged '58 was an even better deal from Private Reseve.

Wildwood had a repurposed Krieger VOS @8.3 pounds and .87 @ the 1st fret. I still kick myself for not snatching that one up. It was gone the next day...

The repurposed Hinson CC Special and Goldfinger CCs were everywhere for a hot minute but Gibson really hacked up the aging on the Goldfinger and other aged CCs. I thought those repurposed CCs were atrocious.

Yeah.... I thought those Gold Fingers were sickly to start with.... there was a few Ace models that got repurposed too.... the Krieger Custom was very cool.... even some Knopflers were repurposed.

Too many CCs were being processed at the wrong time....

 

[DanD]

I traded the aged '58 and a Benchmark R9 (I had $6400 in) to CR Dan from CR.org for his one off M2M Braz CR7 (the only Braz CR7 Gibson will confirm, there's a couple more out there but those were 'special artist' builds).

The aged '58 ended up in Andrew's hands. That's one I really wished I'd kept. Most will likely scoff but I like the smaller fret wire Gibson used on the TH R7 and TH R8s. I love the fret wire on CC29. Those frets are likely the closest to fretless wonders that Gibson has done in recent years.

 

[mudface]

I traded the aged '58 and a Benchmark R9 (I had $6400 in) to CR Dan from CR.org for his one off M2M Braz CR7 (the only Braz CR7 Gibson will confirm, there's a couple more out there but those were 'special artist' builds).

The aged '58 ended up in Andrew's hands. That's one I really wished I'd kept. Most will likely scoff but I like the smaller fret wire Gibson used on the TH R7 and TH R8s. I love the fret wire on CC29. Those frets are likely the closest to fretless wonders that Gibson has done in recent years.

Yup..,, my CC28 has the narrow tall frets.... as it is a ‘58 reissue.... love these frets as I get more note clarity.

But I like variety..... so my Historics have various neck sizes and frets.

I have been craving a CR..... that’s my next search.

That is after my latest LtDave DSG build..... its one of his new Apache models.

 

[pmonk]

All I know is my 2017 R8 is dated January 31, 2017.

The only point I can make is the binding has turned pink from the bleeding.