2012-2014 LP Standard - Linear volume?

[John_P]

Calling owners of 2012-2014 LP Standards with push-pull pots.

Mine has 500 k audio taper volume pots (you know; quick vol drop to about 50% from 10-7 and then you are approaching mud territory).

I was surprised to find out that these are supposed to be linear according to specs. Well, mine are not, there's a distinct knee in the output curve at about 7 on both volume pots.

I dig the guitar and the push-pull features, and I don't mind the PCB. Great presence at the top volume end, but I wouldn't mind some more useful volume range to work with.

-Do your volume controls work like this, are they audio taper or linear (where 5 on the scale means 50% output)?

-Did anyone install a treble bypass cap to preserve presence when volume is rolled back?

Thanks

 

[donnycraven]

Calling owners of 2012-2014 LP Standards with push-pull pots.

Mine has 500 k audio taper volume pots (you know; quick vol drop to about 50% from 10-7 and then you are approaching mud territory).

I was surprised to find out that these are supposed to be linear according to specs. Well, mine are not, there's a distinct knee in the output curve at about 7 on both volume pots.

I dig the guitar and the push-pull features, and I don't mind the PCB. Great presence at the top volume end, but I wouldn't mind some more useful volume range to work with.

-Do your volume controls work like this, are they audio taper or linear (where 5 on the scale means 50% output)?

-Did anyone install a treble bypass cap to preserve presence when volume is rolled back?

Thanks

All of the Gibson Push Pull pots are 500k Audio.

 

[jeffy]

They don't all have the same specs.

2012 Standards have a 500k Linear Volume and 500k Non-linear Tone. I don't remember if they switch in 2013 or 2014. 2014's are Non-linear for both.

2012 Gibson.com: Gibson Les Paul Standard

2014 Gibson.com: Les Paul Standard

 

[John_P]

Thank you, mine was made in mid 2012 and it has non-linear volume somewhere around 70:30. Just like vintage specs, or a Strat, that gets quiet below 7 with lots of treble roll off.

I mostly use 300 k pots in my other guitars, but I've got 500 k too, all linear. 500 k gives a good sparkle on top, but looses treble faster when volume is cut back. Combined with non-linear audio taper, it renders the low volume range pretty useless for me.

-How do you go about?

 

[Juan Wayne]

Thank you, mine was made in mid 2012 and it has non-linear volume somewhere around 70:30. Just like vintage specs, or a Strat, that gets quiet below 7 with lots of treble roll off.

I mostly use 300 k pots in my other guitars, but I've got 500 k too, all linear. 500 k gives a good sparkle on top, but looses treble faster when volume is cut back. Combined with non-linear audio taper, it renders the low volume range pretty useless for me.

-How do you go about?

Testify brother! This is why I always tell everyone (well, except on some situations) to use 300k linear volumes and 500k audio tones. You pretty much summed it all up without the need of the annoying math I usually go into.

Now, it's almost impossible to get long shaft push/pulls to fit that combo. The best I could do when I found myself in that situation was to make the tone pots push pulls. I couldn't find linear 250/300k long shaft push pulls anywhere, so I got some 500k off eBay. Guitars that carry short shafted pots are easier to tweak. I had to be content with coil taps without the out of phase and series paralell options though.

 

[donnycraven]

Every style Gibson push pull pot I have seen or pulled from a les paul has been 500k audio. I have only seen two styles Gibson has ever used. The old one and the current.

 

[donnycraven]

The current has been in use on the standard and all other gibson since 2008. It has a black insulator on the back and is 500k audio. They only use 300k linear when it's not push pull.

 

[John_P]

The PCB looks like this. The black insulator pots are long shaft push-pull 500k audio for volume. The tone pots are short shaft push-pull.

I like the push-pull features and I use all of them. Single coil neck plus HB bridge is one of my favorites for cleans, single coil bridge with tone bypass is great for certain lead work, so I guess I'm stuck with this PCB.

-Did anyone install a treble bleed cap?

 

[Juan Wayne]

-Did anyone install a treble bleed cap?

I have, but you have to take a lot of time of to try values, rest your ears, try again... there's no straight forward recipe nor rule of thumb, no matter how many people try to make it look that way. There's just too many variables involved. You could do the math, but it'd take a lot of time.

The actual equations involved considering inductance, capacitance, resistance and parasitic caracteristics of the circuit turn out to be diferentials of several degrees, and everyhing from the specific pickups to the tone caps or even the cable you use can result in unexpected effects.

All I can suggest is to explore the pot variable first, and if you decide to go further, this thing (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B76ZAUwGSkrsR3ZqRGdjdXFvbEk/edit?usp=drive_web&pli=1) can be a helpful guide to sort of get an idea of where to start. Credit goes to whomever took the time to create the thing.

Be warned, there will be side effects you might either love or hate. The only guitar I actually kept the mod in for a while was a single pickup one where there was an actual increase in treble when I rolled the volume down, which made for interesting crisp cleans and thick, ballsy leads. I ended up removing the mod after a couple years though, replacing it with a 250k p/p vol and 500k p/p tone for 3 different coil taps on a single humbucker. YMMV, yada yada yada.

I still gotta ask, how did you get away with short shaft pots on a Les Paul? Is the top that much thinner on the tone pots side? Because in that case I might change the tones on my LPJ for Gibson ones. They're too loose for my taste, while the volumes are kinda heavy, just the way I like them.

 

[John_P]

Thanks dffdff, I'll look into that.

Regarding the shaft length; the tone pot shafts are in fact shorter which initially led to some problems for me, when I replaced the knobs, But I resolved it. There are probably shorter ones out there, maybe these would qualify as semi-short?

regards

 

[Juan Wayne]

Thanks dffdff, I'll look into that.

Regarding the shaft length; the tone pot shafts are in fact shorter which initially led to some problems for me, when I replaced the knobs, But I resolved it. There are probably shorter ones out there, maybe these would qualify as semi-short?

regards

Alright, I guess I'll have to stop being a lazy jackass and measure them. I should have done it yesterday when I swapped the pickups! The ones I currently have work great but they are too light, and I'm not exactly delicate when it comes to adjustments on the fly.

I'll check the thickness and see if some shorter pots will fit. Thanks dude.

 

[jeffy]

Thank you, mine was made in mid 2012 and it has non-linear volume somewhere around 70:30. Just like vintage specs, or a Strat, that gets quiet below 7 with lots of treble roll off.

Since it looks like you have you board out, can you post the number stamped in the metal barrel of the pot. It should start off with a 405S. It should be a 15 digit number.

 

[John_P]

Jeffy, I borrowed the pic from youtube. Mine looks the same but without the "E.T." stamp.

I'm using the guitar for recording now, so I won't remove it until I'm done. I tried to locate the number with a dentist mirror, but I couldn't see it.

But I did a quick and dirty DC resistance reading from the jack, that shows 125 k @ vol 7,5 which indicates 500 k audio taper (75:25). A Linear pot would give 125 k @ vol 5. This is the way it works on traditional 50's or modern wiring and I assume the PCB wiring wouldn't be any different in this regards?

 

[grayd8]

Calling owners of 2012-2014 LP Standards with push-pull pots.

Mine has 500 k audio taper volume pots (you know; quick vol drop to about 50% from 10-7 and then you are approaching mud territory).

I was surprised to find out that these are supposed to be linear according to specs. Well, mine are not, there's a distinct knee in the output curve at about 7 on both volume pots.

I dig the guitar and the push-pull features, and I don't mind the PCB. Great presence at the top volume end, but I wouldn't mind some more useful volume range to work with.

-Do your volume controls work like this, are they audio taper or linear (where 5 on the scale means 50% output)?

-Did anyone install a treble bypass cap to preserve presence when volume is rolled back?

Thanks

I ditched the PCB when I learned the wire color codes didn't follow what they were supposed to be when swapping pickups. If I wired them up correctly the neck ended up being wired in series. I eventually put a Jimmy Page harness in it and the tonal range, especially on the low end is much wider and open sounding. Single coil mode sounds very P90 ish, series mode is great for metal, and oop is just fun to play with.

 

[jeffy]

Jeffy, I borrowed the pic from youtube. Mine looks the same but without the "E.T." stamp.

I'm using the guitar for recording now, so I won't remove it until I'm done. I tried to locate the number with a dentist mirror, but I couldn't see it.

But I did a quick and dirty DC resistance reading from the jack, that shows 125 k @ vol 7,5 which indicates 500 k audio taper (75:25). A Linear pot would give 125 k @ vol 5. This is the way it works on traditional 50's or modern wiring and I assume the PCB wiring wouldn't be any different in this regards?

Well, the 405S code will tell you exactly what the pot is. It will tell you if it's a 500 or 300, and if it's Linear or non-linear without a doubt.

 

[John_P]

Well, the 405S code will tell you exactly what the pot is. It will tell you if it's a 500 or 300, and if it's Linear or non-linear without a doubt.

I now have the PCB in my hand. The vol pots have a 12 digit code: 450S3435 1148

I can't find a reference. -Can you crack the code?

 

[John_P]

Owners of 2012 Standards!

Your push-pull volume pots are supposed to be linear according to Gibson specs.
Mine are numbered "450S3435 1148". They behave like vintage spec audio tapers, i.e 50% output at about 7,5. -Are yours the same spec?
If what I'm hearing is just the result of 500K/Linear plus Modern wiring, then 500k/audio plus Modern wiring would be extreme...?

Owners of 2013-2014 Standards; your pots are supposed to be 500K/audio. -What's your experience? Anybody like to share the number stamped on your pots?

I need this information to make the right decision, If I should rewire it 50's style or replace the pots or mod the caps etc.

I'm very happy with tone and the push-pull features in the volume range 10-7.5 but going lower cuts too much treble. I play the amp with guitar volume control and I'm used to linear pots where Vol 5 means 50% output.

Thanks

 

[Ant]

I also have a 2012 standard, and even though they are meant to be linear taper, they measured highest about at 7.5 on the volume like you measured, so they appear to be audio taper not linear as Gibson have stated. They are definitely 500k not 300k.

They roll off ok from 10 to about 7, and it is still wired stock and not changed to 50's wiring as some have done.

May change it soon with some sprague vitamin Q 0.020 PIO caps.

Might remove the Mallory caps for the split fat tap function with normal wire to ground to get a stronger split sound as the neck split on my guitar is very hard to tell when split, the bridge you can tell but very very subtle when split. I'll just see how it sounds, can always change it back

 

[John_P]

Thanks Ant, very helpful.

Mine was made in August 2012, maybe by that time they put in 2013 boards...or the 2012s were never linear...

I've got a decent split tone on both pickups. The neck PU in SC mode paired with the bridge in HB mode is very nice for clean and gritty tones, but the more distortion I dial in, the less obvious the difference.

The bridge PU in SC, on full throttle bypassing the tone control is a screamer with distorted sounds. Like a Les Paul Junior, sort of. Having all these sounds on board with just one axe is awesome.

But as usual with this taper, going below vol 7 makes the split sounds rather uninspiring. I understand that by removing the "fat tap" caps the EQ curve will be closer to an ordinary single coil, but the difference might be a bit too much to work with amp settings for HB's? I think that's why they included the fat tap mod...

 

[djw171]

Interesting stuff guys.
I've just picked up a 2013 Traditional.
According to the specs it has a 300K Linear Volume and a 500k non-linear tone. I'll have to take a closer look to see if that's what they really are.

Is this more in keeping with the real '59s etc? The R8 / R9 specs from 2013 do not state the type of pots fitted, nor does the 2015 True Historics.