1968 phillips screw Pat.No. stickers vs early/mid 70s - any difference in tone?

[the passenger]

I'm buying a nice '68 ES-335, it has the original chrome Pat.No. sticker humbuckers with phillips head screws on the base plates. Obviously I can't unsolder them before purchasing to see the details under the covers. Just asking generally if these '68 Pat.No.'s are the same pickups as the later early-mid 70s.

This detail has a great importance for me for the following reason. I had two completely opposite experience with Pat.No. sticker pickups:

- I once had a rare '74 Standard with factory humbuckers (Pat.No.) instead of minis and those pickups sounded awful, really dark and muddy with no bite.

- On the other hand, one of my friends had a 80s SG that had 60s Pat.No. sticker humbuckers installed (gold covered ones with phillips screws and 'L' tool markings on the legs). He had no idea about the exact year of those pickups other than "probably mid 60s" because he purchased the guitar with those already installed. Well, this set had the most fabulous tone I've ever heard in my life. Bright and super articulate with fast pick attack and a unique chirpyness when the notes were picked. I almost cried. I could only borrow the guitar but he didn't sell it to me. I have tried countless so-called boutique pickups since then and there was not a single one that had any resemblance in tone to those incredible Pat.No.'s in that SG.

So I would like to know what to expect with these '68 ones. The dark, muddy tone of the '74 Pat.No. or the wonderful articulate tone of that unknown year '60s Pat.No.?

 

[ARandall]

By all accounts pickups were pretty consistently wound by about 65 - as in they had a turn count shutoff and the coil winding machines made fairly consistent wind patterns from one pickup to the next.

However the example you have shown however is for 2 different guitars - not only separate instruments but 2 wholly different designs. An SG will sound different to a Les Paul even if you took the very same 2 pickups out of one and put it into the other.

And now you want to know how a similar pickup might sound not only in another different instrument, but in yet another differently designed and constructed guitar - an individual instrument that none of us not even you have ever even seen before......well, it will probably sound different again.

 

[the passenger]

Of course what you say is true. The interesting thing was in the case of that SG is it didn't have a particularly good acoustic tone. I had many SGs over the years and that 80s SG was not one of the better examples when I played it acoustically, so I didn't have a high expectation when I plugged it in my Plexi. Then bam! Holy sh*t! That's when I had a revelation that a really good pickup can indeed have a huge influence on amplified tone. That realization also went against my usual experience that a guitar's inherent acoustic voice usually dominates the outcome when plugged-in to a classic cranked tube amp regardless of pickup choice of the same characteristics (BB1&2s / Custombuckers or similar style modern Alnico 2/3 boutique PAFs for example - the guitar's voice will dominate more than the PU set I choose to put into the guitar).

In the case of the 74 Standard, it was not a bright and particularly snappy guitar acoustically to begin with and it sounded that way plugged-in as well with the factory Pat.No. pickups. They even accentuated the muddy qualities of that particular guitar. They didn't help the guitar come alive.

In the first instance, the transformation was insane which caught me off guard.

Let's reformulate the question this way: are '68 Pat.No. pickups more similar to the '70s ones or to the mid '60s versions?

 

[cooljuk]

There is no "the 70s ones" regarding Gibson pickups. ...nor are there "the 60s ones."

Materials and designs varied significantly.

You CANNOT walk away from this question knowing what the guitar you are considering will sound like, nor if it will sound more like one of the two you mentioned than the other. You'll need to play it to find out.

Different magnets, different coil patterns (I've documented a difference of almost 100 TPL between 1968 and 1972 T-Top examples) and of course different guitars themselves.

Even in the late 1960s and early 1970s, Gibson humbuckers were not consistent enough for you to say "I've heard two sets that were very different - which one will this third set sound like?" You documented it yourself, within your own question: They are not all the same.

 

[Airplane]

Impossible to say because every guitar will sound different.

That being said my 69 ES 345 sounds a whole lot better than every reissue i‘ve had before. And i had many of those suckers.. Especially the muddy neck position is a terrible disease of modern guitars.
It’s not the PUs alone tho. The old electronics are just better and don’t suck tone as much as these awful new pots.

 

[AJK1]

Just tell him what he wants to hear

 

[the passenger]

Just tell him what he wants to hear

Wow, this pickup sub section has some smart-ass mofos.

What I wanted to hear was as simple as it gets: are 1968 Pat.No. humbuckers more similar in construction to early/mid '70s Pat.No.'s or rather to mid 60's Pat.No.'s. because there are many conflicting "facts" about this period on the internet. I included a very simple and interesting (at least it was for me) personal experience with these pickups that I had in the past. He answered the question factually and I more or less got the info I needed: these pickups tend to had an incredible variance and inconsistency in this short period, so there is no straight answer to my question.

Although it would have been helpful to dive a little more into what physical attributes should I inspect in photos provided by the seller before driving 1000 miles (potential significance of certain tool markings, baseplate screw types, etc. to look for).

Thanks anyway.

 

[cooljuk]

Wow, this pickup sub section has some smart-ass mofos.

What I wanted to hear was as simple as it gets: are 1968 Pat.No. humbuckers more similar in construction to early/mid '70s Pat.No.'s or rather to mid 60's Pat.No.'s. because there are many conflicting "facts" about this period on the internet. I included a very simple and interesting (at least it was for me) personal experience with these pickups that I had in the past. He answered the question factually and I more or less got the info I needed: these pickups tend to had an incredible variance and inconsistency in this short period, so there is no straight answer to my question.

Although it would have been helpful to dive a little more into what physical attributes should I inspect in photos provided by the seller before driving 1000 miles (potential significance of certain tool markings, baseplate screw types, etc. to look for).

Thanks anyway.

He's just being a smart ass and having a little fun. It's a nerdy dry topic. We'll take whatever fun we can get with it. Don't let it get to you.


The outside physical attributes of T-Tops in this period will not help you determine anything about the sound.

The primary significant factors in variance of sound in these two eras of T-Top will be:

Magnet type
Magnet charge
Coil pattern
Turn counts
Coil offset
Steel parts

There is also a greater potential for squeal and feedback, due to loose fitting parts, which increases into the mid/late 70s.

NONE of those factors can be observed via photos of the outside of the pickups.

They are all going to sound like T-Tops, if in working order. What I mean is, compared to a Telecaster bridge pickup, a P-90, a Duncan Jazz, a mini humbucker, etc. all three of the T-Tops you are discussing should sound more similar to each other. Since you expressed hearing a great difference in two T-Top sets, however, you can count on the possibility to hear at least that much variance in other T-Top sets.

When you get into the end of the 1970s, say 1978 and beyond, and into the early 1980s, it's basically "anything goes" with humbuckers that use the same T-Top bobbins. Some had ceramic magnets and some had 12 poles. Some had extra long slugs and screws. You can get something that sounds more like a Super Distortion than a classic T-Top sound in that period, and you can't know it by looking at the outside of the guitar in photos.


Bobbin mounting screws, black / white lead wires, hookup lead wire, etc. as you are discussing can be counted on for NOTHING regarding the sound of 1960s and 1970s Gibson pickups. Forget any of the nonsense you read otherwise on guitarhq and ignore all those who repeat it, as if they know.


https://www.mylespaul.com/threads/guitarhq-site-full-of-errors-about-vintage-pickups.445927/

 

[Daniel.S]

Question is: Did they start using 300k volume pots in 74?

 

[AJK1]

Wow, this pickup sub section has some smart-ass mofos.

What I wanted to hear was as simple as it gets: are 1968 Pat.No. humbuckers more similar in construction to early/mid '70s Pat.No.'s or rather to mid 60's Pat.No.'s. because there are many conflicting "facts" about this period on the internet. I included a very simple and interesting (at least it was for me) personal experience with these pickups that I had in the past. He answered the question factually and I more or less got the info I needed: these pickups tend to had an incredible variance and inconsistency in this short period, so there is no straight answer to my question.

Although it would have been helpful to dive a little more into what physical attributes should I inspect in photos provided by the seller before driving 1000 miles (potential significance of certain tool markings, baseplate screw types, etc. to look for).

Thanks anyway.

Oh sorry
Simple answer is…neither