It's now illegal to own things..

poncho said:

Hey guys, I hate to break it to you, but OP is right




The police just came and confiscated everything. I'm not kidding, they even took used tissues out of the waste basket? I said, 'what in god's name are you creeps doing?"

And they said

"Our jobs"

Well, that shut me up right quick. Needless to say, I'm not sure what's goin' on exactly. I'm sorta shellshocked, just sittin' here, in the middle of my empty house, it's like a prehistoric cavern or something. On the plus side, the natural reverb is nice, almost got a hall type feel. Er, but I digress

Yeah, they took everything

Except for this computer for some odd reason, obvs. I assume because the van down the street is monitoring my every key stroke, I could be wrong. As such, I may not post here much anymore, at least not candidl--

Click to expand...

stinkfoot said:

yup.. cherry picked alright.. cherry picked right from the #2 listed story on the Google News headline list at approx 5:30pm..

just happened to notice it, that's all.. and honestly thought the whole thing to be a waste of federal law enforcement resources.

I could have posted this story instead.. Dashcam: Cop shoots 70yr-old man reaching for cane | WWLP

Click to expand...

Doesn't law enforcement have more important things to do? Imagine, building a collection for nearly 80 years only to have the FBI come and seize everything.

This country HAS gone to hell.. and the handbasket is probably illegal!

Click to expand...

geochem1st said:

Not even the same. Some property is in better care in the public domain, such as our Natural Parks and Museums. What maybe recognized as valuable and irreplaceable to those who study artifacts are often missed by many others who can't tell or have no interest in these things.

Click to expand...

Engel said:

Also in question is whether he acquired them legally.

Click to expand...

LPBR said:

Gosh, you american guys are screwed. Seems that every day there are more and more laws to f*ck the common citizen.

Click to expand...

45WinMag said:

You miss the concept that the authorities should have to prove he acquired them illegally, not that he should have to prove that they were acquired legally. The burden of proof is on the accuser, not the accused.

Click to expand...

45WinMag said:

Wrong. Exactly the same. A government entity is using the inability to provide provenance of how a possession was acquired, far after the fact, to deprive someone of their property. It isn't for you to say what is the better care for this man's possessions, because they don't belong to you. They don't belong to you, they don't belong to the public, they don't belong to the government. They belong to him, and this is theft.

Click to expand...

Engel said:

That's why they're having the investigation.

Click to expand...

45WinMag said:

You still don't get it. They had no legitimate reason to even begin an investigation, let alone confiscate this man's property. Possession of a collection of antiquities is not illegal, and isn't basis for probable cause. This is a fishing expedition, not an investigation.

Click to expand...

You've totally dismissed the fact that by owning some of these artifacts (including human remains) he is possibly breaking various treaties, export and art laws not just in the US, but in the countries they came from. Also in question is whether he acquired them legally. It's the pink elephant in the room that you refuse to see. Instead it's easier to question law enforcement and the importance of their taskings.

Click to expand...

stinkfoot said:

way to go FBI for capturing this vicious 91 yr old collector of things..

A 91-year-old man, Donald Miller of Waldorn, Indiana has been found to have collected thousands of ancient artifacts over a span of 80 years and storing them in his home. The artifacts were seized by the FBI on Wednesday, who have promised to return those items which the owner had no right to possess due to federal and state laws as well as treaties. Among the items are Native American, Russian, Chinese, Peruvian, Haitian, and Australian relics as well as more from other countries.

In a news conference, Special Agent Robert Jones of the FBI called the cultural value of the artifacts “immeasurable,” but would not give detailed information on any of the items individually. He declined to offer information as to why the investigation into Miller’s collection began, but he acknowledged that the FBI had received information about the artifacts and deployed its art crime team to investigate. The monetary value of the relics has not been determined.

Miller, a world traveler who claims to have visited 200 countries, collected items from places he visited. Although some of the artifacts were not obtained through proper channels, some of the items were collected legally or prior to laws against their collection being passed. The artifacts were stored in several buildings located on Miller’s property, which was originally Iroquois land, including in the main house where he resided and a second house which is currently unoccupied.

FBI Seizes Thousands of Ancient Artifacts From Indiana Home

FBI Pores Over Thousands of Artifacts from Indiana Collector - NBC News

Doesn't law enforcement have more important things to do? Imagine, building a collection for nearly 80 years only to have the FBI come and seize everything.

This country HAS gone to hell.. and the handbasket is probably illegal!

Click to expand...

Engel said:

I'm not going to speculate as to the reasons why they started investigating, but by all means, have at it!

Click to expand...

geochem1st said:

1. No
2. Cheap shot and I don't care as it really doesn't pertain to the issue.
3. This is part of what they do.





"JERUSALEM — Parts of the Dead Sea Scrolls are up for sale — in tiny pieces.Nearly 70 years after the discovery of the world's oldest biblical manuscripts, the Palestinian family that originally sold them to scholars and institutions is now quietly marketing the leftovers — fragments the family says it has kept in a Swiss safe deposit box all these years.
Most of these scraps are barely postage-stamp-sized, and some are blank."
Fragments of Dead Sea Scrolls up for sale - The Denver Post

The family who 'owned' the scrolls, cut them up intentionally to obtain the most dollar value from their 'property'.... thus ruining one of the greatest archeological discoveries of the millennium.


So maybe the old man kept his artifacts in preserved condition as a museum curator who is trained in handling antiquities, although I doubt it. He is ninety years old and will pass soon....who is to say that his heirs will do the same and not destroy them for profit like the owners of the Dead Sea Scrolls?


The knowledge gained from such items that are irreplaceable benefits all. Destroyed or hoarded, they benefit none.



Not even the same. Some property is in better care in the public domain, such as our Natural Parks and Museums. What maybe recognized as valuable and irreplaceable to those who study artifacts are often missed by many others who can't tell or have no interest in these things.

Why should everyone miss out because the artifacts often make their way into the hands of those who don't know what they have? How much poorer would we be if DaVinci's sketches were used to wrap fish and were tossed into the garbage by his heirs, rather than to be preserved and displayed for the public to see?

Click to expand...

45WinMag said:

If they did have reason to believe a crime had been committed, they would know what they are looking for, not grabbing everything everything and then trying to sort out provenance. This alone supports a lack of probable cause. Like I said before, fishing expedition.

Click to expand...

geochem1st said:

I support the laws protecting artifacts.

Click to expand...

Spoone said:

Right.
I call BS on this one.

Because we're ALL totally up to speed on all the treaties and laws of the day, as well our current ones, right? Acquired them legally? Like an 11 year old kid finding something in a field and taking it home? Or a guy in a bazaar somewhere who comes across some neat little thing, in 1955, and buys it?

Umm...somehow, I don't think that treaties or import laws or whatever ideas you *think* he should have known were even on his mind.

And to be honest, if you're going to make an effort to call the old guy out, I'd bet *you* don't know what those laws or treaties are, either.

Click to expand...

Jimmi said:

So at what age do we collectively decide we can take someone's legally obtained property that we now consider artifacts because we worry how they will dispose of them in thier will? This is over reaching. Our current government increasingly does not view us to have any inalienable rights. First not to privacy now not of property.

Click to expand...