The Sceptic's Thread

[geochem1st]

"The Normandy guitar is said to be the world’s first production aluminum archtop guitar. It is a lightweight instrument that produces warm tones."

Manufacturing is a high note for aluminum guitar maker | Normandy | Zephyr Engineering | Machine Design


"Because of various tonal qualities and different grades of aluminum, it took time to get the right tone and sound until the specific design and the internal bracing was perfected. Now, with a patent pending since 2005, the final product is available for purchase and has gone from a dream to a solid contender in the guitar manufacturing world.

The American-made guitars are manufactured and hand-riveted in Salem, Oregon. Known for their sustainable qualities and warm tones, these lightweightaluminum electric guitars are an instant classic. They are now available in nine colors and three different and unique finishes: chrome, powder coat and candy apple metal flake finish.

Normandy Guitars ensures the quality by hand-picking every component. Each guitar takes several months to finish. Discoveries like making their own overwound pick-ups for a high output that mimic that 1950’s sound set them apart from the average wooden guitar. These quality components combined with the aluminum body allow for an incredible sound with greater sustain."

Normandy Guitars® Aluminum Electric Guitars - Company Profile

 

[Raz59]

Or are you saying the difference between lesser quality rosewood and higher, in this case Brazilian, is not too drastic?

That's what I'm thinking, yes.

 

[uburoibob]

That's what I'm thinking, yes.

I'll paraphrase Ken Parker here from a phone conversation I had with him the other day: "I don't know why they group Brazilian Rosewood with East Indian and other Rosewoods. The tonal and structural difference between Brazilian and other Rosewoods is so profound it deserves a classification of its own. And it already sort of has that in the instrument building world."

Again, a paraphrase, but that's the essence of what he said.

Bob

 

[BillB1960]

I'll paraphrase Ken Parker here from a phone conversation I had with him the other day: "I don't know why they group Brazilian Rosewood with East Indian and other Rosewoods. The tonal and structural difference between Brazilian and other Rosewoods is so profound it deserves a classification of its own. And it already sort of has that in the instrument building world."

Again, a paraphrase, but that's the essence of what he said.

Bob

Let me re-paraphrase that:

*sniff* "MMM....cork!"

 

[Deus Vult]

 

[Raz59]

I'll paraphrase Ken Parker here from a phone conversation I had with him the other day: "I don't know why they group Brazilian Rosewood with East Indian and other Rosewoods. The tonal and structural difference between Brazilian and other Rosewoods is so profound it deserves a classification of its own. And it already sort of has that in the instrument building world."

Again, a paraphrase, but that's the essence of what he said.

Bob

Ken Parker should look into Phylogenetics, things are grouped for a reason. I'm sure that there are great xylophones and claves made out of Braz...but I don't believe the hype surrounding Braz fretboards on Les Pauls, it's nice to have, look at and smell, yes. But if I were to switch it for Cocobolo, Madagascar or even Indian Rosewood, I'm not sure anyone would notice the difference.

For reference's sake, here's a video on tap tone wood:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3JhauyBQ8Y&fmt=22"]Tap Tone Wood[/ame]

 

[uburoibob]

Ken Parker should look into Phylogenetics, things are grouped for a reason. I'm sure that there are great xylophones and claves made out of Braz...but I don't believe the hype surrounding Braz fretboards on Les Pauls, it's nice to have, look at and smell, yes. But if I were to switch it for Cocobolo, Madagascar or even Indian Rosewood, I'm not sure anyone would notice the difference.

For reference's sake, here's a video on tap tone wood:

Tap Tone Wood

I am sure he's aware of Phylogenetics, and it may be that an evolutionary study would reveal something enlightening, but I am not sure it pertains to our conversation here. Yes, they are grouped scientifically for a reason, but it doesn't mean that their performance qualities are even in the same neighborhood.

All he was implying, I THINK, is that a guitar is the sum total of its parts that, once sorted, would indicate a percentage of how much each part informs the sound of the instrument. Since the neck is a chamber of sorts, even though it's damped by the truss rod mechanism, there IS some resonance that occurs. And that different woods make different sounds. AND that due to the nature of Brazilian to have a MUCH more desirable resonance for creating musical instruments, that having a Braz board would probably make an audible difference if the luthier knew how to make that happen. And that the difference would probably be considered a positive difference rather than a negative difference. Others have used the words "profound" to describe this difference. I am not sure I'd go that far, but I DO know I like my guitar to have a musical resonance rather than be inert like the Norlin glue receptacles. Myself, I am not sure I'd hear the difference. I might. But without digging into my fingerboards and smelling the Rosewood, which I am not about to do, I guess I'll never know for sure.

That's all. In this case, it's sniffing Rosewood, not cork, as that's the quickest way to determine if what you have actually IS Rosewood.

Bob

 

[yeppedeppdepp]

Well said.

Now, If you'll excuse me, I'll enjoy my 5 piece Mahogany SG.

 

[uburoibob]

Thanks for posting that video. I think it clearly reinforces Ken's point about, from a tonewood point of view, Brazilian being grouped with Indian Rosewood. Indeed, Mahogany, Indian and Cocobolo all tend to sound very close to each other. Brazilian sounds MUCH different. That's the point Ken was trying to make - not a scientific observation on its genus, but an observation of its SOUND.

Bob

 

[Raz59]

Yes, the sound of RAW wood is remarkable, it's an ear and eye opener for those who have never heard of it before (me ). What I'd like to hear next is tap tone wood of several prepared freboards, and see how much they differ...

 

[Boshizzle]

I want a guitar made of Mississippi chitlin wood. Sure, you need to keep a pore key spring on hand when the finish causes it to weeze. But, a few twists of the key and it breaths freely giving it THE holy grail of tone.

 

[geochem1st]

I want a guitar made of Mississippi chitlin wood. Sure, you need to keep a pore key spring on hand when the finish causes it to weeze. But, a few twists of the key and it breaths freely giving it THE holy grail of tone.

Hence the 'Muddywood' guitar. ZZ Top's Billy Gibbons helped design the Muddywood electric guitar (pictured below), a one-off instrument crafted from a plank of the Mississippi Delta shack in which blues legend Muddy Waters was born.

 

[BillB1960]

I want a guitar made of Mississippi chitlin wood. Sure, you need to keep a pore key spring on hand when the finish causes it to weeze. But, a few twists of the key and it breaths freely giving it THE holy grail of tone.

Wow...haven't seen Green Acres for years!

 

[Boshizzle]

Wow...haven't seen Green Acres for years!

Eating hot water soup before playing also helps enhance tone.

 

[Nick59]

Firstly, I forgot you spelled sceptic with a 'k' in the US........

Secondly (and so on), tapping a piece of free wood is not the same as tiny vibrations passing through a thin strip passively glued to a neck, a neck that is mostly still mahogany. How a material is used is far more important than the luthier's tapping fingernail. Rub your finger over the top of a wineglass and it sings. Do the same to your window and see what happens.

And what of other rosewoods whose density overlaps that of Braz? It's another "black and white" argument - Braz is best.

Can someone explain why the tenon length has ANY effect on tone? A short tenon is a mahogany-mahogany joint. A long tenon is a mahogany-mahogany joint in a slightly different place. If the joint is solid then its the same as a one-piece neck/body made of mahogany, wherever the join happens to be. The only difference would be that the long tenon might be more stable over time, if the joint started to fail. Strats don't even have a tenon but the energy through the joint doesn't seem to notice....

"Heavy guitars sound crap" - must be a big disappointment to the owner of the near-10 pound 9-1927. This is where the physics gets interesting. "'Bursts sound fantastic" and "heavy guitars sound crap" begin to interfere with each other, until (like matter and anti-matter colliding) they eliminate each other with a huge bang. The same happens with "flame tops sound best" and "plain tops sound best"; "mint unplayed guitars sound crap" and "I collect mint guitars and they sound fine" (courtesy Mr E Easton).

I refer you now to the original Pallet guitar - made from a rain-soaked shipping pallet, complete with nail holes and knots. And the other guitar with all but the top and neck made from papier-mache......and those were both acoustics, far more sensitive to the physical characteristics of the materials used than the crude electric.

And for those lucky enough to miss my posts about the psychology of wine - here's another chance to skip it.

If you believe your ears when you get a guitar back after several months and it definitely unmistakeably sounds better because the lacquer is thinner or whatever, take heed of the tale of the professional wine tasters asked to write a "tone report" on the wines they were given. Cheap wine in an expensive bottle got described in rich glowing terms, complex flavours and characters were evident to them, even though the same wine in its original bottle got short shrift.

White wine that had secretly been dyed red was described as having fruity tones and richness of bouquet etc, that were not there.

And the same wine got completely different tone reports dependent on the colour of the ambient light in the room where it was being tested.

These were experienced tasters, who unmistakeably definitely tasted the difference, to the point of being able to describe in great detail the "tonal qualities", even though they were all generated by their brains, not the wine.

 

[rockstar232007]

Firstly, I forgot you spelled sceptic with a 'k' in the US........

Secondly (and so on), tapping a piece of free wood is not the same as tiny vibrations passing through a thin strip passively glued to a neck, a neck that is mostly still mahogany. How a material is used is far more important than the luthier's tapping fingernail. Rub your finger over the top of a wineglass and it sings. Do the same to your window and see what happens.

And what of other rosewoods whose density overlaps that of Braz? It's another "black and white" argument - Braz is best.

Can someone explain why the tenon length has ANY effect on tone? A short tenon is a mahogany-mahogany joint. A long tenon is a mahogany-mahogany joint in a slightly different place. If the joint is solid then its the same as a one-piece neck/body made of mahogany, wherever the join happens to be. The only difference would be that the long tenon might be more stable over time, if the joint started to fail. Strats don't even have a tenon but the energy through the joint doesn't seem to notice....

"Heavy guitars sound crap" - must be a big disappointment to the owner of the near-10 pound 9-1927. This is where the physics gets interesting. "'Bursts sound fantastic" and "heavy guitars sound crap" begin to interfere with each other, until (like matter and anti-matter colliding) they eliminate each other with a huge bang. The same happens with "flame tops sound best" and "plain tops sound best"; "mint unplayed guitars sound crap" and "I collect mint guitars and they sound fine" (courtesy Mr E Easton).

I refer you now to the original Pallet guitar - made from a rain-soaked shipping pallet, complete with nail holes and knots. And the other guitar with all but the top and neck made from papier-mache......and those were both acoustics, far more sensitive to the physical characteristics of the materials used than the crude electric.

And for those lucky enough to miss my posts about the psychology of wine - here's another chance to skip it.

If you believe your ears when you get a guitar back after several months and it definitely unmistakeably sounds better because the lacquer is thinner or whatever, take heed of the tale of the professional wine tasters asked to write a "tone report" on the wines they were given. Cheap wine in an expensive bottle got described in rich glowing terms, complex flavours and characters were evident to them, even though the same wine in its original bottle got short shrift.

White wine that had secretly been dyed red was described as having fruity tones and richness of bouquet etc, that were not there.

And the same wine got completely different tone reports dependent on the colour of the ambient light in the room where it was being tested.

These were experienced tasters, who unmistakeably definitely tasted the difference, to the point of being able to describe in great detail the "tonal qualities", even though they were all generated by their brains, not the wine.

There's a HUGE difference between wine and guitars!

Just sayin'.

 

[Nick59]

You're not wrong there.

I've just read that Joe Bonamassa clearly can't have learned ANYTHING from this forum, as he plays an Historic which presumably doesn't have Braz, and now he's screwed a BIGSBY onto his guitar, that huge lump of heavy metal that weighs more than a football field of thicker nitro, so must absolutely kill the tone. No wonder he sounds so crap.

 

[rockstar232007]

You're not wrong there.

I've just read that Joe Bonamassa clearly can't have learned ANYTHING from this forum, as he plays an Historic which presumably doesn't have Braz, and now he's screwed a BIGSBY onto his guitar, that huge lump of heavy metal that weighs more than a football field of thicker nitro, so must absolutely kill the tone. No wonder he sounds so crap.

 

[mrkenny]

I purchased a CR4 in 2006. When playing the guitar standing up I would get static pop from the back of the guitar rubbing against my shirt, little pop's thru the amp. I'm a finisher by trade, I use Nitrocellulose Lacquer most of the time.
When I felt the finish on the guitar it didn't feel the same as my work. I refinished the guitar completely with my material, no more static discharge. The guitar weighed in around 1/4 lb lighter after refinishing. While stripping the original finished I noticed it had a plastic feel and was very thick.
In response to some of the posts about refinishing RI's I'll say that to the touch my guitar feels a lot better, it looks better to me. The guitar is a bit lighter and to my ear and touch is more lively. I refinished a friends R7 with similar results.

 

[uburoibob]

Sorry, Nick, but if you are suggesting that 'experienced tasters' confused the taste of a Chardonnay grape with a Pinot Noir grape based only on a dye job, then I seriously have to doubt the experience of the tasters or some other environmental factor, such as purposeful distraction. Maybe ONCE can the eyes trick another sense, but the wine people I know, who know that it's actually fine to sniff a cork (let's you know about mold and seal issues rather than bouquet), can sip and put the years of a particular wine in order and hit it every time based on taste. Meaning, they wouldn't fall for the dye job.

And where I am going is where I went with FennRX. If it's in your best interest to not buy into any of this stuff for any reason, including thinking with your wallet, then more power to you. You don't HAVE to buy into any of it. But it doesn't mean that some of this stuff doesn't make a difference. The folks here who have a vested interest in defending their lower cost guitars as being perfectly fine are right - they are perfectly fine...FOR THEM. And those that tout Historic Makeovers are also right - they are perfectly fine FOR THEM. I said it's all about fun. Someone else said it was about entertainment. That's what it's all about. You have your interests, and perhaps one of them is just sitting around trying to wipe the smiles off other people's faces by presenting your opinions. Not a terribly healthy hobby, but not as bad as doing it with an AK47. Your original post stated your position clearly and there are some great responses to that. I think most of us agree with you, with a caveat or two. If you are going to get down now and try to squash each exception, then this is gonna be a long tedious thread that's been done about a thousand times over.

Your original post was great and thought provoking... I'll leave it at that.

Bob