You Don't Have a Choice

Discussion in 'The Backstage' started by pnuggett, Dec 6, 2018.

  1. rockstar232007

    rockstar232007 Senior Member

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    Yep. I guess, anyone capable of producing their own energy is "competition".

    I'm talking in financial terms.

    They always say, all of this "green" energy will save people so much money. BS. Every light in our home is either LED (majority) or flourescent/CFL, and our electric bill hasn't budged. We've tried/done just about every "energy saving" method (re-insullation/weather-proofing, etc...), and nothing.

    The ONLY people benifiting financially from "green/renewable energy" are the ones who manufacture/sell the equipment/technology.

    The bottom line is, it's a business, and business make money. Any "savings" promissed to their customers, will be offset (made back) in one way, or another.
     
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  2. parts

    parts Senior Member

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    TUCSON – New statistics from the U.S. Census Bureau show 262,000 moved to Arizona from other states last year.

    Of those thousands, nearly 59,233 came from the state of California.

    The second state with the most people flocking to Arizona was Washington, with more than 14,000 people trading in the cold for the desert sun.

    Coming in at No. 3 was Illinois, with more than 13,000 moving to the Grand Canyon state.

    The data also shows a large number of people coming to Arizona from outside the country, with about 45,000 people moving here after living abroad.

    No mandates for Solar or most anything..

    But there is mandatory gun ownership..

    Please consider New Mexico..
    We are getting filled up..
     
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  3. Pal

    Pal Senior Member

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    That is not necessarily true. I and a lot of other New Yorkers left NY because we got
    sick of programs and appropriations enacted by politicians we voted against.

    Since I moved to NC I have not had one political sign stolen off or run over on my lawn.
    Can not say the same for when I lived in NY or CA.
     
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  4. Marshall & Moonshine

    Marshall & Moonshine Senior Member

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    The CA people are just moving to AZ for better solar power. :D

    Personally, if i ever get my way, I’m moving to Montana.
     
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  5. spitfire

    spitfire Senior Member

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    You're leaving out something, just as your money can earn returns (interest for example), the cost of electricity is also going up over this 30 years. There's very little detail in that article, so it's hard to say where any of these numbers come from. But I think it likely the return estimate is based on the electrical cost in CA today and not taking into account what it will be in the future. However, it's a reasonable assumption to at least use a nominal inflation rate, though electricity is likely to get more expensive (relative to inflation, not less). Also, this same rate is a reasonable rate to use for a ultra-safe investment return. The return on the solar can be considered a very safe investment, electricity is very unlikely to get cheaper, and if it did you'd still be better off. It's a hedge against high electric rates.

    So really comparing today's cost and a solar return using today's electric rates to future returns on investment is comparing apples to oranges (comparing today's dollars to future dollars). And given that future increases in electric cost (which will increase the value of solar return) may track with the rate of return of a safe investment, the two could be seen as canceling.

    So you invest $10,000 today in solar, the system returns $19,000 in today's dollars, while depreciating to $0 (presumably the solar fails after 30 years ). Though PV systems have proven to be very reliable. The weak link, and it isn't all that weak, is the electronics that convert the DC to AC electricity so it can be connected to the electric grid. So you put in $10,000 and get $19,000 (in today's dollars) back for a net gain of $9,000 in today's dollars.

    Or:

    You invest $10,000 in a very safe investment that just keeps up with inflation, and your value in today's dollars is the same $10,000.

    Solar wins!

    Or:
    You invest the $10,000 in a more risky investment with much higher returns. Such as the stock market. In that case, over 30 years, your $10,000 could be worth $40,000+ in today's dollars. But again, that's comparing a riskier investment to a safe one.

    Solar loses!

    Like any financial analysis, you can come up with all sorts of scenarios that have very different results. But, solar is now a good safe investment. And with the likelihood that electricity will get much more expensive, it could prove to be a pretty good or even great investment.

    As for being a mandate, there are all sorts of building codes that add to the cost of homes. And not all of those are simply for safety. For example, building codes that require minimum amounts of insulation. So I don't see this as fundamentally different. Though of course any of these are debatable.
     
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  6. spitfire

    spitfire Senior Member

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    Hell, no. Stay the heck out of New Mexico. We have more than enough people. Come visit, spend some money, eat some New Mexican food, watch some balloons, then go back home.
     
  7. Marshall & Moonshine

    Marshall & Moonshine Senior Member

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    New Mexico isn’t even on my radar.
    My hippie dippie FiL is an artist, and has talked about moving there. I guess theres an art scene.
    You’ll love him. He was going to Burning Man before mots people had heard of it.
    “So there we were, in the desert, wearing nothing but goggles for the dust....”
     
  8. parts

    parts Senior Member

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    Costa Rica sounds like a nice place..
     
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  9. krauley

    krauley Member

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    but did you decide or did someone decide for you?
     
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  10. parts

    parts Senior Member

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  11. judson

    judson Senior Member

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    i want to live in a stable weather climate in the middle of nowhere

    have my nearest neighbor about 10 miles away...

    put up a small turbine/windmil to generate a bit of electric

    grow some stuff to eat, drive 30 miles once a month for supplies...

    the older i get the more i want this.....

    then just lay down and die there one day...

    where do i signup for that? :sadwave:
     
  12. Marshall & Moonshine

    Marshall & Moonshine Senior Member

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    I’ve heard it’s starting to get expensive.
    Lots of Americans move down there.
    It’s catching on.
     
  13. artis_xe

    artis_xe Christopher

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    I'm hoping . I invested a substantial amount of money in it , during the early 90s . looking back __ I should have done gold . crossing my fingers that industry will create a demand ( eventually )
     
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  14. Frogfur

    Frogfur Senior Member

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    That would be a good move. Fresh air and a tax free state.
     
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  15. GearHo

    GearHo Senior Member

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    This isn't about energy, or conservation. This is about being forced to buy something by a state government. call it what it is.
     
  16. Frogfur

    Frogfur Senior Member

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    I grew up in California thru the 50s and 60s. It was a great place to live until the late 60s. After that, it just became California. Something different than what i knew. Jerry brown spent too much time looking up Linda Ronstat's dress and not enough time tending to business.
     
  17. Olds442

    Olds442 Senior Member

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    I chose, just like I chose to live in IL when I purchased this dump.

    this dump = 1950's construction.
     
  18. ramaglia375

    ramaglia375 Silver Supporter Premium Member

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    And in 20 years with a changed electorate, you'll have the same issues/mandates as the state's they moved away from.
     
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  19. JCM900MkIII

    JCM900MkIII Senior Member

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    Buy ~ 10,000 euro solar installation. (which covers my own energy needs and then some...)
    6.5 years later, you make money.
    Installation lasts ~25-30 years.
    Profit.

    Dunno who controls all that stuff in the U.S., but it sounds kinda silly from what I read in this thread.
     
  20. pnuggett

    pnuggett Senior Member

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    That solar roof isn't going to produce enough electricity to keep your future mandated electric car charged so the rate from the electric company for the additional electric you'll need will skyrocket.
    Bet on it.
     

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