UPS and CITES trouble

Discussion in 'The Backstage' started by TJR, Nov 9, 2017.

  1. MaxStatic

    MaxStatic Senior Member

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    You complain about getting too much info and do so by writing the guy a rambling book yourself? Wtf, which one are you the kettle or the pot?

    To OP, sucks man, I feel for ya.
     
  2. orys

    orys Senior Member

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    Mate, I’m pretty sure those British UPS wankers are to blame! I bought several guitars from Japan and US and had no problems at all with CITES. Could be that I live in a shithole (Cyprus) and they don’t know anything about it but it’s not that you’re importing a gun or something! Just ask them how much they want. Furthermore, doesn’t the seller have a copy of the CITES documentation? I think the UK customs and UPS don’t really know what to do. Confiscation seems like an easy job for them, however if they destroy the guitar they will get no tax! Don’t be afraid of them, you’ve got nothing to loose. Start the fight! And ask them to be present when they “destroy” it! It is your right.
     
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  3. Meclazine2

    Meclazine2 Member

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    That is an apalling response.
     
  4. orys

    orys Senior Member

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    By the way. Can UPS forward the guitar to another country? If you pay them the shipping cost? You can send over here and I’ll send it back to you with EPG which only takes 5-6 days with 50 euro. I’ve shipped 5 guitars to the UK like this and none had any problem.
     
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  5. orys

    orys Senior Member

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    No that I think about it they will not be able to ship elsewhere because of the customs involved, but try to shake them a bit man!
     
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  6. kid185

    kid185 Junior Member

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    I didnt have all night to read your extremely long bashing of the OP, but I am sure that you were insulting, and that noone cares if you couldnt or wouldnt read all his post. Noone forced you to even take notice of it, and it is up to the OP if he wants to write a book or not. I am just assuming that you continued with your unwarranted rant, since I couldnt take the time to read more than the first unfriendly sentence. Maybe you should leave forums alone.
     
  7. LtDave32

    LtDave32 Sua Sponte Super Mod Premium Member

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    *Mod Note*

    Tell you what.. Don't bother getting up for two weeks. You won't be able to post here.

    That post earns "jackass of the month", hands-down.
     
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  8. LtDave32

    LtDave32 Sua Sponte Super Mod Premium Member

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    Notice that he claims to not have read it, yet writes about one-third the same amount as the OP, complaining about it. :laugh2:
     
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  9. jonpowl

    jonpowl Member

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    Some wanker who works for British customs is probably playing your "destroyed" guitar right now. I was clearing customs at Heathrow a few years ago and some customs agent took a liking to my tennis racquet and was ready to confiscate it. I could see in his eyes that he thought he would win Wimbledon with my racquet. I asked for his boss and of course she OK'd my passage with the racquet.
     
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  10. jriggio

    jriggio Junior Member

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    I'm so sorry to hear this about your hard earned money. CITES is bound to cause these tragedies over and over. It's the nature of government over-regulation without a clear knowledge of the industry in which they impose their "great ideas".

    Here's the foundational problem with CITES:

    1- its an International law imposed on a world that is governed by many individual countries.

    2- Those countries each have a different internal organization responsible for interpreting those laws into their own country.

    3- The focus of the interpretations have been on "export" with very little understanding and/or reporting about "importing" regulations that every other country is putting into place. It's hard enough to handle each individual countries actions, let alone knowing what every other country is requiring, regarding "import"

    The worst part is that all of these regulations were put into place in the name of "conservation"...another example of law that looks and sounds like the right thing to do, but really is ALL ABOUT THE MONEY!!!

    I better stop now...again so sorry TJR.
     
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  11. JohnInNJ

    JohnInNJ Junior Member

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    As if the current CITES regs weren't enough, each country (exporting and importing) can interpret them as loosely or a strictly as they please from one day to the next. As previously mentioned, I believe the idea of getting hold of your government representative is the best way to go on this.
     
  12. Limehouse Blues

    Limehouse Blues Senior Member

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    OP: telephone Animal Plant and Health Authority in Bristol

    https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/animal-and-plant-health-agency/about/access-and-opening

    If you have a copy of the US export permit you may still be able to apply for the UK import permit. It will cost around 80 quid. As someone else observed, technically you made a mistake but it was an honest one and you should be given a chance to correct things.

    When you talk to APHA ask them for the number of the CITES team with UK border force at the port where your guitar is being held. Call them and explain you are seeking to obtain the necessary import permit. Explain that you were misled by your seller and were led to think you did not need one. What you want is for border force to hold your guitar pending presentation of the import permit.

    You must be given a chance to remedy the situation. If your guitar is seized / destroyed without your being given that chance that would be completely disproportionate in the circumstances.

    Tell the seller what you are doing and tell them that you will hold them liable for all your costs and any losses due to their misrepresentation.
     
  13. DADF#AD

    DADF#AD Senior Member

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    **Warning**
    Frozen Rat - disregard this long post!


    I recently listened to a program on NPR about the CITIES regulations. I was driving so I left the station on and because I was curious to hear if rosewood would specifically be discussed - and it turns out that it was almost the entire focus of that particular show. Here is a link to part of the program. It was longer than what the link provides but this part of it: https://www.npr.org/2015/06/28/4171...-lab-uses-tech-to-sniff-identify-illegal-wood

    While it’s true that guitars and other items made from rosewood present a demand on the world’s rosewood reserves, it appears that rapid depletion of rosewood forests and subsequent registration of rosewood as an endangered species is almost primarily a result of recent massive Chinese importing over the last decade. It used to be focused mainly on Brazilian rosewood but now the focus has expanded to at least 250 other rosewood species.

    Apparently, rosewood furniture and decor is considered a sign of affluence in China and with its rapidly growing economy and subsequent rise of middle class citizens, it is in incredible demand. This raises prices and creates a very lucrative black market that further drives the rapid depletion of these magnificent trees. Competing organized smuggling gangs poach the forests at night in Southeast Asia, Africa, south & central America and cut down these trees paying poor local peasants to haul pieces in large canvas type bags and backpacks. They walk up to four hours into these ancient forests,fell the trees, split the wood and remove the dark heartwood centers. Sometimes they run into other smuggling gangs and one robs and sometimes kills the others. That’s how valuable this wood has become lately.

    IMHO, they will continue to source it one way or the other until it is virtually extinct. Not much different from what they’ve done to the wild tiger population worldwide. We should somehow convince them that fleas and ticks are the new badge of affluence :fingersx:

    So, yeah, protection of the rosewood forests (and other plants and animals) are becoming a necessary component of maintaining a balanced ecosystem but there must be an easier way to distinguish older items (like guitars) containing rosewood from recently sourced rosewood items - post CITIES regulations. Everything will probably be pau ferro soon, at least with regards to natural wood fretboards anyhow. Suhr and other builders have been using it for years now and it’s a pretty nice wood with very similar qualities to rosewood.

    For our U.S. guitar enthusiasts, here’s a link to the pre-CITIES certification paperwork for finished items made before the regulations were put into effect. If you are approved you can legally travel within the US or export your item. It’s called a “Pre-Convention Certificate: https://www.fws.gov/forms/3-200-23.pdf

    Jump through the hoops and careful not to touch the sides! :facepalm:
     
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  14. DADF#AD

    DADF#AD Senior Member

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    TJR,
    I’m really sorry to read about your guitar dilemma. It is truly heartbreaking to hear of such things. Don’t give up the fight yet. I agree with Waywerdson here that placing a well-timed call to your parliamentary representative(s) might expedite the process in your favor. If that route fails, possibly contacting your local news channel about the situation could shed some light on the issue and maybe they could kick open a door for you regarding your import license from customs. It certainly wouldn’t hurt matters. Good luck and keep us posted, forum brother!
     
  15. alanjohnlew

    alanjohnlew Junior Member

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    Visit your MP. He/she should raise the matter with the appropriate minister. I have imported a couple of Gibsons from the US before CITIES and on both occasions had delays at customs. If the wrong Jobsworth gets involved at the start you can expect problems. Go to your MP and ask them to get involved.
     
  16. Guitarman12

    Guitarman12 Junior Member

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    I am all for regulation of exotic timbers as they have been overexploited but from what I can see none of the fees paid to CITES or organisations that run the scheme doesn't actually help the in peril species in any way. Its simply another form of taxation and a job creation scheme. The fact that the rules are a total shambles only goes to add to fustration. That said there are plenty of good les Pauls in Britain already and frankly by the time you are hit with VAT and costsits not worth importing one individual guitar. It would have saved a lot of expense just to saved up a bit money and spend it here in the UK and benefitting the local ecomony....
     
  17. Mowgli5555

    Mowgli5555 Senior Member

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    Ah man...

    This is absolutely terrible. Hopefully there is some type of positive outcome to all this in the end.

    Earlier this year, I purchased a guitar out of Tokyo, and was crossing my fingers the entire time.
    Needless to say, it will likely be my last rosewood purchase from outside the USA.

    It just scares me too much, and money doesn't come around easy enough for me to lose. Josh
     
  18. rick31797

    rick31797 Member

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    I have a fender elite flame with rose-wood that I want to sell, but I am not going be shipping it across the border, it’s not worth the risk..

    I hope it all works out for the op, cities is just all a big scam as far as I am concern..
     
  19. Pesh

    Pesh Senior Member

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    It's a massive shame that these bureaucratic nonsense decisions affect decent people like the OP and put us in such dilemmas. There is insufficient understanding due to insufficient explanation about how to negotiate the imposed terms of the unfortunately unavoidable regulations, the fault of those who impose them obviously.

    It makes free and easy trade complicated, and causes headaches for those wishing to tour internationally or relocate themselves outside their native lands or areas. And when those people who are meant to facilitate the passes and permits know the same as those trying to obtain them, or less in some cases...NIGHTMARES!

    My condolences to the OP - I hope that you find a resolution to this issue in some fashion, and one day hold that Les Paul of your desires.
     
  20. frankr442

    frankr442 Junior Member

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    One afternoon at some government office....
    "Hey, my brother needs a job, let's make up some new regulations and create a department to enforce them!"
     
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