Ultimate does wood make a difference to tone video

Discussion in 'Tonefreaks' started by Bandols, May 1, 2015.

  1. Fogboundturtle

    Fogboundturtle Senior Member

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    no. I mean the so called extra vibration that the wood is adding to the string vibration. The claims is the wood is changing that vibration to create tone. It doesn't. All it does is compressed the sound wave. It doesn't alter or change the sound wave.
     
  2. screamingdaisy

    screamingdaisy Senior Member

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    If it's the electronics, then a Les Paul w/ '57 Classics, an SG w/ '57 Classics, and a 335 w/ '57 Classics would all basically sound the same, within the tolerances of electronics manufacture.

    Anyone notice that a Les Paul with '57 Classics, Nashville bridge, corrian, zamak tailpiece sounds like a Les Paul?

    Anyone notice that a Les Paul with Burstbuckers, an ABR-1, nylon nut and aluminium tailpiece sounds like a Les Paul?

    Anyone notice that a Les Paul with a Duncan Custom, new pots/caps, bone nut, Tone-Pro bridge/tailpiece and locking tuners sounds like a Les Paul?

    Anyone notice that a Les Paul with P90s sounds like a Les Paul? Anyone notice that a Les Paul Jr doesn't?

    You know what else doesn't sound like a Les Paul? An SG or a 335. Despite coming stock with the same scale, pickups, nuts, bridges, pots and caps an SG sounds like an SG, a 335 sounds like a 335, and a Les Paul sounds like a Les Paul.

    You complain about religion, yet you display the same reluctance to apply logic.
     
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  3. Fogboundturtle

    Fogboundturtle Senior Member

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    You would need to transfer all the electronics from one guitar to another to really test this because even if all the electronics is the same, they might not measure the same impedance.

    Tonewood matters for acoustic guitar but has no bearing on the final signal that is amplify for an electric guitar. There is no transfers of tone between the wood and the strings. That's the nonsense i'm talking about. It doesn't mean it's not worth buying more expensive guitar for many other reasons but tonewood is the most ridiculous reason of them all.

    Now, if you have a piezo pickup, that's a different story.

    Btw, I own a Gibson LP standard and a Gibson ES-339. I also own many Agile guitars and other cheap alternative. A few electronic upgrade and some fret dressing/setup, it sounds as good as my genuine LP. It's a sound mix, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.
     
  4. screamingdaisy

    screamingdaisy Senior Member

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    In a mix people can't tell the difference between a Les Paul and a Telecaster.

    Does that mean a Les Paul and a Telecaster now sound the same?
     
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  5. Bandols

    Bandols Senior Member

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    You say this satirically but I have heard dozens of SG's, 335's, no maple top lespauls, and full hollowbody gibsons sound exactly like some les pauls. Why don't all les pauls sound the same? I think it's a silly argument because SG's, 335's, and Les Pauls are all made out of mahogany. So even if a change in wood made a big difference you wouldn't hear it with those guitars cause they are all the same wood. Super sutble changes in tone can be heard from 335's and les pauls but you can hear those with the exact same year and model les pauls... you hearing a difference meaning it's the wood isn't logical.

     
  6. Fogboundturtle

    Fogboundturtle Senior Member

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    They don't sound the same because their electronic and scales are different. You have to stop bringin up anecdotal stories on how you think they sound different and actually look at the science behind it. You can search on YT, there is plenty of videos that shows you and teach you why Tonewood has zero impact for an electric guitar.

    You can tell me you are buying a more expensive guitar for the better looking wood, better construction or better parts and I'm with you. If you buy it for tonewood is where you lost me.

    Instrument manufacturer will not advertised this and will continue feeding the myth of tonewood for electric guitar because it's better for their business. I have no delusion about why I bought my 2 Gibson. It certainly wasn't for tonewood. It was for beauty, comfort and and construction quality.
     
  7. HogmanA

    HogmanA Senior Member

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    Did you not see TKO's videos? where all components are changed over on to a different body?

    But anyway, I'm intrigued. Why is a piezo a 'different story' - what exactly is a piezo picking up that a magnetic pickup isn't?
     
  8. screamingdaisy

    screamingdaisy Senior Member

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    You can find anything on youtube.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seFBVpGmXKk
     
  9. screamingdaisy

    screamingdaisy Senior Member

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    I don't know, why don't all Les Pauls sound the same?

    Maybe it has something to do with what the guitar's made of? You tell me?
     
  10. Fogboundturtle

    Fogboundturtle Senior Member

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    Electronic tolerance. 500k audio pots with 20% tolerance could be anywhere between 350k to 650k. You can also see different between pickups if you do an impedance measurement. Caps are also 10-20% tolerance.
     
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  11. screamingdaisy

    screamingdaisy Senior Member

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    What audio pots and caps do I need to make my SG sound like a Les Paul?
     
  12. screamingdaisy

    screamingdaisy Senior Member

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    Still waiting.

    You're the one that said I'm being anecdotal, and since you've apparently used something other than anecdote to derive your opinion you'll be able to tell me what specific values I need to make an SG sound like a Les Paul.
     
  13. freefrog

    freefrog Senior Member

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    Is rubber better than wood?

    Discuss.

    http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/11/23/article-1332082-0C2FF466000005DC-280_636x396.jpg

    :hmm: :applause: :laugh2:


    Cool, man! And enjoy life! :)




    @ TKOjams: it seems that your work of luthier and your vids on YT have been totally useless...



    :laugh2:

    Not only I pass my time to upgrade cheap instruments for other musicians who haven't much money... but even personally, I play indifferently cheap guitars that I've upgraded and pricey MIA instruments (not to mention all the awful gear that I've built myself).

    Musically, I find ANY of these solutions satisfying.

    ...But I wouldn't venture to claim that they all sound the same...

    ...nor would I say that SG's, 335's and LP's are made of mahogany: it's true only for the SG, the two other models including other species of woods (typically). :)

    EDIT - I agree about the structure of a guitar as being sonically important but it doesn't solve our questions about the influence of woods, subtle or not.


    Now and once again, let me share with the community a thin slice of my humble experience since the 80's.

    Below is one of the countless test charts that I've archived. Having already posted this pic on MLP, I don't hesitate to publish it again. It shows the acoustic response of three LP's, captured through a mic. These three guitars had the same hardware and same strings. Of course, the conditions of measurements were the same (as someone who teaches in a school for future engineers, I'm accustomed to plan my tests in a relatively rigorous way... if only it was the same when I build a pic with three sreenshots! :laugh2: EDIT- my methodology has changed since this test so my screenshots don't always look the same than those).

    I add the pic of the resonance produced by an axe made of alder, with a bolted neck.

    Obviously, the two MIA LP's didn't sound the same: one was louder and bassier than the other.

    ...but they had this dip between 500 and 1000hz, giving them this vocal midrange, whether they were plugged or not (vocal mids totally absent with the Epi)... Coincidence or effect of the acoustic properties of maple and mahogany, cancelling each others in this area? :hmm:

    Not less obviously, the Epi was acoustically closer to the alder axe than to the MIA LP's...

    BTW, by sanding a bit of finish in the electronic cavity in order to see the wood, me and a friend luthier have then discovered that the Epi body wasn't made of solid mahogany. How surprising!

    And FWIW, the same Duncan SH55's have been tried in the Epi then in the MIA number one, with the same wiring harness: This electronic whole didn't sound the same at all in the two guitars.:naughty:

    The owner of the Epi (who had asked me a documented opinion, hence the tests mentioned above) sold it and bought the MIA LP1 in which we had left his Duncan's. It was in the early 2000's.

    That's ONLY a part of MY own experience. But it can't be cancelled from my own reality.

    I wish you all a merry Xmas and/or a happy new year. Relax, since there's much more important problems in the world. And don't forget to be happy with your guitars, whatever they are! :slash:
     

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  14. Ermghoti

    Ermghoti Senior Member

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    Which was done in a video posted to this thread. Not just the components, but all the hardware down to the last screw. Not just different guitars, but two identical guitars built for the purpose of the test, one of mahogany and one of maple.

    You are entitled to your opinion. Your opinion is wrong. Wood audibly affects the sound of solid bodied electric guitars. That is a fact. Whether the difference is significant given the other differences among guitars is debatable. Whether species of woods have signature tonal characteristics is unproven. The claim that construction material has no influence on the signal generated by magnetic pickups is false.
     
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  15. rem22

    rem22 Senior Member

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    Yes you are right, but the part of your comment that I bolded is the problem to me. Mahogany and maple are so different that there is of course a difference. It's like the same pickup in a strat or a LP.

    However, I would not bet my guitar that 2 guitars built the same way (eg : 2 les paul) won't sound radically different with the exact same gear/pup/electronic/player/amp. Especially once amplified, in the mix, you won't make a difference.
    The exact same gear on a Strat MIM vs a Strat MIA....
    Honestly, we you see that :

    - the pups are mounted with screws that have some "dampers" (small shock soft cylinders)
    - these bolts and dampers are mounted on a plastic piece (pickguard)
    - this pickguard is bolted on the body...

    To me, the exact same gear on a MIA strat or a MIM strat leads to an almost undetectable sound difference.
    I've recently made an experiment, CTS pots, Switchcraft, cloth wires, seymour duncan pups....on a 68€ Harley benton guitar. It rocks just as good as my Fender stratocaster. What a sound, you should see !

    Regarding the playability, I've given a full job on the frets, leveled, polished with 0000 steel wool....guess what ? It's exactly as playable as any guitar well set up I've tried. And that includes Gibson, Music Man Petrucci Signature...

    I'm not saying there's no difference. I'm saying the differences are very difficult to spot when you give them the same treatment. And once in the mix, I'm would not bet one of my guitar I'm able to spot the difference. Would you bet your Gibson on that ? :p

    I partly agree on that. The bridge for example, the nut....they are in direct contact with the strings, so yeah it has some influence. Just like the pick by the way. All of my picks don't sound the same.
     
  16. Ermghoti

    Ermghoti Senior Member

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    I was under the impression that was the topic being discussed. The post I quoted was from someone who argues that the use of specific woods in electric guitar building is all marketing-driven. So the "of course" in your post is actually a point of contention.

    To your point, whether different pieces of the same wood can have an affect on the output signal is unproven. Based on the fact that different species produce a different sound, and different pieces of the same wood can have different properties, I'm open to the possibility that there could be audible differences.
     
  17. screamingdaisy

    screamingdaisy Senior Member

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    Half the problem in this thread is there's multiple debates going on simultaneously.

    On one hand there's a very polarized debate over whether or not wood has any impact on tone, and on the other hand there's a more nuanced debate over the influence of wood relative to all the other parts of the guitar.

    So, you end up with a bunch of people arguing over black and white with a bunch of people that want to talk in shades of grey.
     
  18. Ermghoti

    Ermghoti Senior Member

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    NO IT ISN'T!

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y[/ame]
     
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  19. red_bull

    red_bull Senior Member

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  20. freefrog

    freefrog Senior Member

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    Hey Red Bull, how are you?

    On the Paul Stanley signature, the bridge is not anchored in glass: the "top" is only cosmetic, exactly like a plastic pickguard on a Fender. So, what we hear is the resonance of wood. :)

    That said, it brings a new question: do cosmetic accessories and finish alter the tone?

    I've two testimonials to share here...

    1) Someone that I know owns a guitar (an Ibanez, I think), covered with a layer of denim cloth, itself varnished. He dislikes this guitar because the cloth dampens the acoustic resonance.

    2) Being a kind of unofficial guitar tech / luthier, I've personally been a couple of times (IOW: rarely) in situations where a specific pickguard was slightly altering the acoustic resonance of an electric guitar by counteracting its natural "voicing". It could be seen on a frequency chart. If I find the related screenshots among the thousands of pics that I've in my archives, I'll post it.

    In the meantime, I post again this instructive link: Sound of electric guitar wood

    Have a nice day everybody! :)
     
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