Top Secret Wiring of the Pros !

Discussion in 'Tonefreaks' started by Ilya-v, Oct 8, 2010.

  1. Ilya-v

    Ilya-v Member

    Messages:
    76
    Likes Received:
    39
    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2010
    Edit: This thread is PACKED with ALOT of great info so read at least the first page.

    Here's the PM I've sent korus:

    This combination of wiring by
    frankfablo, dpgumby & korus
    Makes the End all Be all solution for all your wiring problems.

    Treble loss by lowering volume? FIXED.
    Weird Volume & Tone interaction (50's wiring)? FIXED.
    Volume does nothing below/above/between X (Taper problems)? FIXED.
    Still too bright (Sheen) when lowering the tone pot with the regular Treble Bleed method? FIXED.

    In my drawing I've posted some typical values, but I'm still waiting for a replay
    from korus about what resistor value (R1) will bring us closer to the beatifull
    RS Superpot Taper (it may seem that i'm cheap.... I am :D)

    Also I want to know exectly what's the interaction between C2, R2 & R1 and how
    each of the components affect my bass & treble as the volume goes down
    (they are bypassed when the volume is at 10).

    If I understood corectly R1 changes the Taper but does NOT limit or have any
    effect on the bass as R2 has on C2?

    So...
    R1 Only changes The taper.
    R2 Limits/lessens the effect of C2 (bleed cap) on the circuit.
    C2 The higher it is the thinner the tone will be when the volume turned down.

    150k for R1 is a good start to make it more of a 30% taper.
    (10% is log/audio, 50% is linear).
    So if you hate the Linear or the half unusable CTS Audio taper,
    30% is a good middle ground for a smooth nice volume control.


    Lets polish this bastard and give it a name shall we?
    2010's Wiring? :thumb:

    :cheers:
     
    donP73, El Kabong, kevinpaul and 19 others like this.
  2. dpgumby

    dpgumby Senior Member

    Messages:
    100
    Likes Received:
    47
    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2009
    Ilya-v, glad to know your appreciating this wiring mod! I am still using it and still really liking it. I have experimented with different types of volume pot (I've got linear ones in at the moment) to get me the taper I want, particularly for pickup blending in the middle position.

    I have spent a lot more time thinking about the guitar tone circuit since I made my original post, and I can see that some bits of my analysis were a bit naiive perhaps ("letting through the lows" and "messing with the volume taper" are effectively the same thing for example) but basically the summary of what this mod does is still valid - gives you very controllable, consistent modern wiring with a very natural sounding treble bleed, the effect of which reduces as you turn down the tone. You summarised it very well I thought, better than my long winded effort!

    Anyway, I hope I'm not treading on korus's toes here but I can answer some of your questions.

    I have a spreadsheet tool that I wrote to calculate the effects of taper adjustment resistors. I actually measured the tapers of three pots, a linear, an RS Superpot and a Gibson Audio taper pot. The RS Superpot is somewhere around a 30% taper. A resistor placed where R1 is on your diagram will tend to produce an anti-log effect, so I'm assuming your starting point is an audio taper volume pot. My calcs say that it is not possible to achieve the exact RS taper; R1 at 200K gives you the upper part of the taper but is slower over the bottom half of the travel; R1 at 100K gives you the lower end taper, but is a little wierd over the upper part (starts off linear from 10 - 7 and then drops steeply to 30% 7-5).

    So, for a typical 500K 10% audio taper volume pot, I think the best value for R1 is about 150K - it's pretty close.

    If you start out with a linear volume pot, you will need to put the resistor across the centre and grounded lugs of the volume pot - I haven't done the sums on this correction, (need to mod my spreadsheet) I'll add it in a later post.

    I will try to post some traces to illustrate, but I need to work out how to do that first!

    HOWEVER - be aware that putting in a taper adjustment resistor is not a something for nothing mod - it will alter your tone as you change the volume. This is because you are changing the resistive load across the pickup as you vary the volume pot setting - with a 150K R1 positioned as you have it here, as you reduce the vol, the resistance of the volume circuit decreases (load on pickup increases). By the time you have reached half way on your pot (resistance wise) the load has gone from 500K to 343K. By the time you get to 0, resistance is at only 115K. This will tend to flatten the resonant peak, i.e. make the guitar sound darker as you turn it down.

    For that reason I think it is usually best to get the pot with the taper you want without taper adjustment resistors - unless you want to manipulate your sound in that kind of way of course.
     
    Laetus1 and xxlovesmilie like this.
  3. Ilya-v

    Ilya-v Member

    Messages:
    76
    Likes Received:
    39
    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2010
    Thank you very much for the response dpgumby.

    I am aware of the lower pot = lower Resonance peak effect.
    So there is a compromise on the gain of the peak but on the other end
    its compensated by the Treble cap. :hmm:

    150k it is :cool:

    Also can you explain the effect of R2 on/and C2 as beatifully did with R1?

    The awareness and exitment is abit slow don't you think?
    Maybe the Universe is not ready for its power yet. :laugh2:

    Thank you again dpgumby.
     
  4. Raz59

    Raz59 Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,009
    Likes Received:
    28
    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2009
    R2 and C2 don't necessarily have to be in series, do they? Being in parallel would work as fine, no?
     
  5. Ilya-v

    Ilya-v Member

    Messages:
    76
    Likes Received:
    39
    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2010
    Did you mean that the resistor being in parallel to C2 in my Drawing?
    I don't think so Raz59.

    The whole point of putting R2 in series with C2 is to limit alittle the effect of C2.
    I think its called Kinman's way of wiring the treble bleed.

    If I understood you corectly your Res & Cap are wired in the Regular Treble Bleed way right?
    In the regular way you only have R1 in parallel with C2, without the "Loop".


    The loop makes R2+C2 in parallel to R1 when the tone is full on 10.
    And when you lower the tone control you remove the effect of R2+C2 on R1
    thus effectivlly removing the treble bleed effect from the volume pot.

    The Regular Treble Bleed way permenantly conects C2 to R1,
    with the "loop" way you vary the effect of C2 on R1 as you roll down the Tone.
    R2 is there just to tweak how effective C2 is.

    Hope I made it clear Raz :D I hope I said.
     
  6. Raz59

    Raz59 Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,009
    Likes Received:
    28
    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2009
    The treble bleeds in my guitar are the most common type: resistor in parallel with a capacitor, connected between pickup and switch lugs, but that's irrelevant.

    What meant was conecting the treble bleed circuit like this:

    [​IMG]

    Why put the capacitor in series with the resistor (Kinman's way of wiring)? Doesn't the "tapered treble bleed" fix the sheen effect? Why limit the the effect of C2?
     
  7. Ilya-v

    Ilya-v Member

    Messages:
    76
    Likes Received:
    39
    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2010
    I think we'll have to experiment with this stuff.
    Whats the sonical difference between series or parallel is a mistery. :hmm:

    I know that a parallel resistor changes the taper.
    In our case R2 is a series & a parallel one (its in the loop).
    Also I've noticed that the Tone Pot BECOMES another parallel resistor when
    we lower the tone pot.

    So I guess the taper of the volume does change when we lower the tone.
    edit: Its does NOT change the taper of the Volume pot if wired in series. look in the post after it.

    I think I'll build an experimental harness and test various positions and post here.

    Kinman's way makes the sound less thin in low Volume positions.
    Without the series resistor the sound becomes too thin at about 2-5 on the Volume knob.

    The sheen effect is when you turn down the Tone knob and some treble is still
    leaking to the output through the bypass cap.
     
  8. Ilya-v

    Ilya-v Member

    Messages:
    76
    Likes Received:
    39
    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2010
    Raz59:

    The Difference is HUGE between how the resistor wired to C2.



    Series:
    [​IMG]

    Parallel:
    [​IMG]

    In Series way the Tone pot has NO effect on the Volume pot because
    the Cap somehow blocks the pots resistance.
    Aren't we lucky? :thumb::applause:

    However wiring the 220k in parallel to C2 makes a HUGE MESS.
    It jumps the two pots in Parallel through this resistor.

    The Volume and Tone are now in Parallel to each other, it makes the tapers
    VERY Dependent on each other.
    Its even more messed up than the "Interactive" 50's wiring. :laugh2:
    I can't even explain how one effects the other, it was so messed.
    Add the C2 and the 220k alson in parallel and you've got the 30's wiring. :laugh2:
    The opposite of intuitive.

    Now that we've cleared that "parallel to C2" conflict.
    Let's find the perfect values for C2 and R2.

    Also we don't have to put R1 if we like our current Volume Pot taper as
    dpgumby already said.
     
  9. jonesy

    jonesy GLOBAL WIRING GURU MLP Vendor

    Messages:
    17,112
    Likes Received:
    4,359
    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2008
    It looks like you did both Tests without a .022 Tone cap (C1) soldered back to the Tone pot, so how do you actually know how the Volume and Tone pots interact with each other? :hmm:


    What value are you using for C2?
     
  10. Ilya-v

    Ilya-v Member

    Messages:
    76
    Likes Received:
    39
    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2010
    I measured it with a DMM.

    They interact Resistance-wize ONLY in the Parallel wiring.
    As you can see on the photo the 220k resistor is forming a loop between the
    two pots with the black wire. (un soldered for testing).

    The absence of .022uf tone cap is irrelevant because the tone pot resistance
    is constant whether the cap is in or not.

    C2 is 1n/.001uF typical bleed cap.
     
  11. dpgumby

    dpgumby Senior Member

    Messages:
    100
    Likes Received:
    47
    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2009
    It is valid to connect the tapered bleed in this way - with tone on 10 it is just like a conventional parallel treble bleed. When you lower the tone control, you are just introducing a series element (the top end of your tone pot), so you are reducing its effect. BUT - As you are increasing the resistance of your parallel branch though, it will alter the vol pot taper, so you may get an interaction when your volume is set below 10, i.e. you may notice the volume change as you change the tone control. It is for this reason that I prefer this mod with a pure series treble bleed, as my aim was to get non-interactive controls.
     
  12. jonesy

    jonesy GLOBAL WIRING GURU MLP Vendor

    Messages:
    17,112
    Likes Received:
    4,359
    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2008
    Sound clips would be nice?
     
  13. jonesy

    jonesy GLOBAL WIRING GURU MLP Vendor

    Messages:
    17,112
    Likes Received:
    4,359
    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2008
    Ilya-v, It would be nice to actually hear some mp3 sound clips with a Tone cap attached and see if this circuit really does what you are claiming it does.

    Many times your ear dos not perceive things like a multimeter does. And what looks good on paper may not really work like you think it does in the "real world", without a Tone cap installed and relying only on a meter (not your ear) I'd say your results are slightly flawed at best.
     
  14. River

    River Senior Member

    Messages:
    57,250
    Likes Received:
    91,243
    Joined:
    May 19, 2008
    This thread is useless without sound clips - before and after.
     
    Funky54 likes this.
  15. Ilya-v

    Ilya-v Member

    Messages:
    76
    Likes Received:
    39
    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2010

    Exactly dpgumby.
    They are VERY interactive in a not so good way.
    Everything exept full volume is ruined (worse than 50's wiring).
     
  16. Quill

    Quill Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,548
    Likes Received:
    3,035
    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2009
    Ya! BUT - it's pretty exciting! Thanks for posting your trials and notes, guys - I will try these tricks myself! Really, really cool stuff - what fun!
     
    LIBERTYMACHINE likes this.
  17. Ilya-v

    Ilya-v Member

    Messages:
    76
    Likes Received:
    39
    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2010
    Hey Jonsey, Do you think I'm BSing you guys?
    "Real World" is REAL. ask frankfablo or dpgumby.


    Why? River WHY? After. WWWWHHHHHHY :(

    Thanks for the Positive comment Quill. :D
     
    dynabite and LIBERTYMACHINE like this.
  18. Quill

    Quill Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,548
    Likes Received:
    3,035
    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2009
    Well, it seems to me that you guys understand the parts and pieces well enough to be creative with them, and that in itself is fun. I can't wait to try out the combinations - got a little test board with a couple pots all set up, just waiting for some time to open up.

    I have a guitar set up with connectors here and there in the harness - between the pickup leads and volume pots, and in the lead that runs between the pickup selector switch and the output jack - so I can easily plug in different harnesses and try out different set-ups.

    And I almost wonder if some of the really oddball interactions could be applied in interesting ways to the controls in a crazy fuzzbox design ... anyway. Will be watching for further developments!
     
  19. Ilya-v

    Ilya-v Member

    Messages:
    76
    Likes Received:
    39
    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2010
    That is awesome Quill.

    Can you do the wiring on the first page but without R1 (for now)
    and testify what your experience was?
     
  20. Quill

    Quill Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,548
    Likes Received:
    3,035
    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2009
    :laugh2: Yes, but it might be Christmas before I can get to it! From the way you guys are going at it, by that time you'll have the bloody guitar pots controlling levitation and dialing in lines of communication with other planes of existence. But I'll definitely get back to you with my experience, whenever it will be.
     

Share This Page