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Discussion in 'Luthier's Corner' started by steve2, Nov 17, 2017.
My apologies, better?
They will be the last guitar store before the only thing left is online stores. I enjoyed trying out an ES-339 before buying it online without paying tax, but those days are nearly gone.
What about Allans? Back when I lived in Oz, they seemed to be everywhere. I think they changed their name to Billy Hyde or something, but that was after my time.
Still here in Adelaide but you wanna talk about sticker shock!
I remember going there as a kid in the 80s. It was well before I played the guitar, but I used to stare at the Ibanez supershredders and think "one day..."
There are one or two about......one in Blackburn in and in more central Melbourne. But they're small stores - even if there are a few of them. Small staff roster too which greatly increases the chance of them actually knowing something
why or how does it cheapen the experience?
.....there's ya problem. That's all I need to read.
Honestly, @steve2, I'm not sure I want to encourage you in this thread ... your title, first post, and subsequent posts are pretty troll-ish, not to mention disjointed. What does your gloomy outlook for large manufacturers have to do with the continued existence of stringed instruments and the folks who build and repair them? Both will be around "In the year 2525, if man is still alive."
But, this thread hit 4 pages (so far), so qualifies as a success for you! Therefore, I'll explain my comment.
We live in an age of hog-wild consumerism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumerism, meaning people often buy things they don't need ... and often don't use. LOTS of guitars have been sold and hardly touched. This is a cheap experience, not driven by desire or talent, but marketing. The vast majority of the guitars produced over that last 20 or 30 years have been throwaways ... hardly even worthy of the term "entry level" or "student model" ... and got thrown away. It's true that there are "good-but-cheap" guitars at the next level (presently $400~500) that are good enough to learn on and upgrade, and some of those may even qualify as "keepers" ... but a LOT fewer of these are produced (even these level guitars might need the services of a luthier, btw). The next level by numbers is infinitesimal compared to the whole market, and these, being expensive, will always require the care and service of a luthier ... or a fanatic owner willing to buy luthiery tools and learn how to use them.
Granted, cranking out huge numbers of junk instruments might draw out some talent ... but those talented ones will eventually climb the ladder to a quality musical instrument, or al least a modded mid-tier. There is also the guy (like me) that has nice equipment, but can't play worth beans! But I have bought-and-sold 30+ fixer-uppers, which makes me a luthier! Not to mention, I'm finishing my second self-designed scratch-build, and have the tools (and will) to make more.
So remember I said the cheapened experience was "at one level." True, some big guitar builders that became offshore manufacturers will degrade or even disappear, and it may seem that all the mom'n'pop shops were put out of business by the big chains who are now on the ropes, but ... there will always be some nut that thinks he can sell guitars in his neighborhood, and customers will seek out said nut, and capable people will be hired to keep those things in top shape, and maybe even build a few custom guitars (luthiers !!!).
Scott Grove is a realist, and not into old guitar bullshit. If you actually think a 1959 Gibson les paul is something special, except for resell value, You are a lunatic. My 9 year old Music Man JP is a better guitar, by a mile. For one, the old guitars look like shit, 2, that guitar weighs 11 tons, 3 it's ugly as hell.
It is the same sort of crap high school kids talk about along with Chevy engines, and other folklore that are mostly lies
LOL. Your back to start more shit eh? I don't expect you'll be around MLP much longer.
FWIW, I'd love an 11 ton guitar. I could use some bottle jacks to hold it up on stage
For 1, I think Fender will be ok, but it will be beans, rice, ramen noodles, and unsweetended tea for dinner for them for a REALLY long time, like 10 years or longer. Ernie Ball will be OK, because their business model makes sense. Gibson is not really owned by Henry Juszkiewicz and David H. Berryman, It is just like someone making house payments for 1 year saying they own their house. They are seriously up shit creek, and there are 2 digit IQ'ers on this forum that think I am trolling, which I suppose is defined by anyone who doesn't admire antique guitars, or act like this - about old guitars. Those people are childish at best, and that is the point in that movie, the vernacular, the whole thing is making fun of how stupid people are about old guitars. Scott Grove is the only serious guitar professional that seems to get it. I am an engineer, and play rhythm guitar occasionally in an awful band. We have a bass player that lives in my next door neighbors guest house, and he is as poor as a church mouse. He has a 1963 Fender P-Bass that he claims to be worth $10,000. You have never seen a person more in need of $10,000 in cash. I am waiting for the person stupid enough to pay that much for that Bass. It's failry cool, and would be nice to have just like a 1959 Les Paul, but you would have to be nuts to actually pay alot of money for it. I feel the same way about Jewelry, expensive watches, old cars, old motorcycles, and anything else old. While some things are nice and old, most are serious junk in my world.
There are plenty of good Les Pauls, such as this one https://www.zzounds.com/item--GIBLPTR17
or this is my favorite Les Paul - https://www.zzounds.com/item--GIBLPNSTDP16
Over $2000 is getting kinda silly in my world, for a heavy guitar that is nearly identical to this guitar - http://www.guitarcenter.com/Epiphone/Les-Paul-Custom-PRO-Electric-Guitar-Ebony-1321473136458.gc?
SO, I would love to have a guitar with a high resell value, but I would never buy one with a high resell value for the MSRP
Well mister "steve2", congrats on being this Thanksgiving's greatest turkey.
No, THREE months off and hassle some other forum.
I warned you once, and you ignored it.
Now we're going to ignore you, for you won't even matter anymore.
..not that you ever did.
What a troll.
I think one thing to note is that not everyone else lives in your world. You are more than welcome to your opinion, however, insulting those who don't share that opinion says much more about you than it says about the ones with dissenting views.
If you would like to talk merits of old guitars, that is a perfectly valid topic. Some of them are really great and have "that sound" that many of us grew up listening to and therefore are keen to replicate. Might it be a little silly? To some, but not so much to others. Other old guitars are total turds, but to lump all of them in to one category or other is rather narrow-minded. Just like there are modern made guitars that are awesome and some are total turds.
As for $2k being silly in your world, that is fine if you consider as such, but I have an old beat up PRS that was over $2k new and it is a fantastic instrument. Some custom made instruments (by real luthiers who make a living at it, by the way) are frequently worth more than that due to their attention to detail, specialty materials and techniques, etc. So to many, a guitar over $2k is not silly at all. Those who appreciate true craftsmanship are always willing to pay for it. For some people, that is guitars, for others, it's furniture, or art, or food, or whatever. You strike me as the type of person who is all about function with no real regard to form. That is fine, but many people appreciate form as much or more than function, which make more expensive but exquisitely crafted items worth the cost.
Some people claim to be able to see through all the BS, but really all they do is make more of their own by going to the opposite extreme. Old wood, lacquer, techniques, etc. produced results that many find pleasing. Does that mean that it's all hype? Nope. Does that mean that all old things like that are the only way to go? Nope. I'm an acoustic physicist and spend all day immersed in the world and science of sound. There are definitely some things about the older instruments that make them different. Some call that difference being special, some call it being terrible, and some call it being overrated. Your label is yours to choose, but it is no more valid than that applied by anyone, whether you agree with it or not.
As for your doom and gloom predictions, those companies will evolve to stay valid. They aren't going to just sit there while some trend, competitor, law, or other circumstance threatens the way they have done something. They want to make money, so they will adapt. That may be to go after a more high end market, a more low end market, or go after all segments, only some of which you apparently see as being "valid" or "viable". Regardless, some people will always pay for a name, whether it be Fender, Gibson, Ford, Chevy, Jaguar, or whatever.
Open up your mind to see that there is a whole lot more out there than what you claim there is. There have never been more options available in instruments than right now, and it's wonderful. If you are the type to go for high end, custom stuff, you're in luck. If you are a more nuts and bolts, salt of the earth type, great, you're in luck, too. Just be thankful you have those options and that you aren't bound to someone else's opinion. Likewise, don't be so naive as to think that others must conform to yours.
Three cheers for Dave!
fact is, some of what that guy said was worthy of discussion and debate, but he came in like as asshole with no history here or relationships, basically presented his opinion in an arrogant and insulting way in a place where he knew it would stir up shit.
That would be like me going on TDPRI with no history and spouting my opinion about telecasters for my opening post.
That's textbook troll whether the guy had a valid opinion or not.
Yeah but Telecasters DO suck lol.
I don't think so.
I build a lot of them.
My observation was that he was here to argue and cause problems.
I warned him once. It was ignored.
This place, this corner of this forum is pretty much free from all the crap elsewhere. People here help each other because of the brotherly spirit in this place.
It's what caused me to join MLP in the first place.
I will do all I can to protect and preserve it.
the comment was meant to be "tongue in cheek". A lot of people I know a big Tele fans - especially on Gretsch Talk where I usually hang out. I've just never bonded with them so I like to play devils advocate