The Reasons You Hear Guys Say It Doesn't Sound Real.

Discussion in 'Amp Modeling' started by frankv, May 17, 2017.

  1. frankv

    frankv What Are You Waiting For? Premium Member V.I.P. Member

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    Where ya been bro? Haven't seen you around lately.. Everything OK?
     
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  2. Mindfrigg

    Mindfrigg Senior Member

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    Yeah, doing okay Franky, thanks. Just took a break from the forum for a while. Too much stoopid. :laugh2:

    I try not to read too much anymore. It's mo betta for my blood pressure. :facepalm::iough::rofl:
     
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  3. marksoundguitars

    marksoundguitars Chief Paint Sniffer MLP Vendor

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    I don't know much about the profiling and modeling stuff, but I've seen Jimmy Olander (Diamond Rio) live with his Kemper. He sounded exactly like I expected. Same on his "Jimmy O Show" videos on Facebook. He had some help setting it up from Michael Britt (Lonestar, 'mbritt' profiles), and profiled his old faithful Matchless.

    Some people might think it sounds sterile, but I like to think it's the ideal version of the player's sound.
     
  4. frankv

    frankv What Are You Waiting For? Premium Member V.I.P. Member

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    Sterile was used 10 years ago.
     
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  5. marksoundguitars

    marksoundguitars Chief Paint Sniffer MLP Vendor

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    Groovy. :lol:
     
  6. Mindfrigg

    Mindfrigg Senior Member

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    This thread really makes a pivotal point regarding amp modeling. It's really really important to have a clean fairly flat response amplification system for modelers.

    If you don't you really can't give a valid appraisal of any modeler..unless you're using headphones. Even then without that moving air you're missing a component.

    To quote John Fogerty "Sometimes you gotta feel that thing whackin' you in the gut." :dude:

    If you must use a guitar amp, turn off the cabs in the modeler and use the cleanest amp possible. Even then some models will be adulterated by the preamp, power stage, and speaker of your amp. It just is.
    In my early years of guitar synthesis I settled on a 200w Fisher quad hifi amp and 4-12" hifi cabs. It had a joystick control to balance volume...you could pan through all four speakers. Sooo cool. :laugh2:

    But cumbersome. :doh: :laugh2:
     
  7. frankv

    frankv What Are You Waiting For? Premium Member V.I.P. Member

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    Yes sir and that would exactly describe the title of this thread.
     
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  8. mmd

    mmd Senior Member

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    Yep. When I ran the Helix through the loop of my 120 watt Rivera it could have been VERY "passable" - but not ideal. At that point, it begs the question: "Why would you spend $1400 on a rack unit to ONLY use modeled pre-amps?" I would STILL end up having every pre-amp run through a 2x60 EL34 based power-amp. A great sounding power-amp, but totally limiting my use of the technology.

    Having a super high powered, linear power amp (like a hi-fi or PA amp) would be the way to go, but then...would your guitar cab still sound the best that it could? I use EVM12Ls in my guitar cabs. About as un-colored as a guitar speaker can be, but there is STILL color. So that eliminates the "fun" of impulse responses. A Celestion, or some other low-wattage guitar speaker? Forget it. NO neutrality in tone there....

    Then you have a vintage amp with NO effects loop. You want to run the modeled pre-amp into the FRONT END of your amp???? WHY?!?! Have the tone of the pre-amp colored by the gain stage and tone stack of your existing amp? Recipe for turd-tone. I KNOW - I tried this in my formative years. I had a Fender Bassman 100 head with a Music Man 2x12 with the folded horn thingy. I would buy preamps to get a "better" sound (notice I am not using the word "tone"? there is a reason, lol). NOPE. It was gain and EQ on top of gain and EQ - a recipe for turd tone.

    It really does take an ENTIRE different attitude toward pursuing tone using a modeler. If you love your cab, great - keep it in the closet with a tube amp that sounds good with it. I have done that. The S120 and an EV loaded 2x10 cab sits in the closet with boxes of pedals stacked on top.
     
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  9. bulletproof

    bulletproof aka tarddoggy Premium Member V.I.P. Member

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    Yup....that damn L6 Pod thing I had back in '04-'05? Sterile....from what Ive heard with this new tech,its a whole new ballgame. Im still not rushing to the profilers just yet,however,Im really impressed just how far they have come.
     
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  10. Sean D

    Sean D Junior Member

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    This video really exemplifies why I switched from a physical amp to a modeler.

    In my band, I used a 100 watt Mesa with a 4x12 cabinet. When I was able to play my amp at proper levels, it sounded great, felt great... was great. The problem was in most venues I played, I was unable to play my amp at proper levels. At one wedding, we played on a patio where the physical environment and the low level of my amp conspired to cause horrendous feedback and noise. To solve these issues, I would turn my cabinet in another direction or place the cabinet remotely so I could turn the amp up and not melt the ears of the people sitting at table 3. This coupled with my use of IEMs had me wondering why I was hauling around a head, cabinet, pedal board (all in cases), effects rack, and accessory case when I could achieve the same (or at least very similar) result with a top of the line modeler.

    I had been using an Eleven Rack at church and was pleased with the tones for that application so I was aware of modeling as a potential solution, but felt the 11R would not work for my band. I started looking into the AX8 and decided to sell off all my Eventide effects and Voodoo Labs switching to fund the purchase.

    I have had the AX8 for a couple of months and have played several gigs, and I have never been happier with my tone. The tones are super consistent across venues (...and we play in a wide range of physical environments), I can fit my entire rig (AX8, expression pedal, wireless, IEM, and cables) into a rolling case which could probably pass as a carry-on, I set-up and break down in about 10 minutes, and I get nothing but compliments on my sound from audience members, sound guys, band members, and other musicians.

    I have tried to convince the other guitarist in the band to ditch his amp for a modeler, but he says it just won't work for him.... I tell him, no problem... I'll be having a beer while you're still breaking down.
     
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  11. cybermgk

    cybermgk Singin' the body lectric Premium Member V.I.P. Member

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    :thumb:
    Well said. And welcome to the forum!!!!. The consistency of tone can not be emphasized enough.

    Course, "I'll be having a beer while you're still breaking down" is pretty nice perk too :thumb:
     
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  12. Mindfrigg

    Mindfrigg Senior Member

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    I think if guys thought of it like this they might "get it". You wouldn't listen to a cd of your favorite guitarist through a Marshall stack. It's a recorded digital reproduction of their amp. Just like a modeler is a digital reproduction of an amp.
    The guitar amps most desired by guitarists color a sound, and in many cases radically. Doesn't make sense to take those modeled colors and then muddy them with another color...like a filter. Which is what happens running a modeler through most guitar amps.
    Bass amps tend to be less so. So I have used bass or ideally keyboard or PA amps in the past.
     
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  13. Mindfrigg

    Mindfrigg Senior Member

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    Wow. And first post too! In the modeling subforum.
     
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  14. cybermgk

    cybermgk Singin' the body lectric Premium Member V.I.P. Member

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    Yea, I've ran pedals/gsp2101 to Torpedo CAB to a keyboard amp to pretty good success.
     
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  15. Sean D

    Sean D Junior Member

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    Yeah... I've been lurking around MLP for years (along with just about every other guitar/music forum on the web). I have not really felt the need to post on any of them until I got into the whole modeling thing. I feel I am pretty representative of the average weekend warrior who would/could/should be considering modeling as a solution. As a guitarist who has been buying and selling gear over the past 30+ years in search of great, consistent tone, the $1,300 I spent on the AX8 is the best money I have ever spent on any piece of equipment.
     
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  16. mmd

    mmd Senior Member

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    Cool. I am in the same boat. I gig 6-8 times a month and I have never been happier than I am with my Helix rig. It truly has been the BEST gear investment I have ever made - outside of my FIRST professional tube amp rig (Rivera M100). I still include that as a "top buy" because I was equally inspired by that amp - it opened the world to me!! The Helix has done the same....
     
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  17. Mindfrigg

    Mindfrigg Senior Member

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    It was a very salient first post too. I imagine you're aware of the sometimes controversial nature of the subject of modeling (I mean..really?) hereabouts. Ill feelings have been generated at times.
    I learned my lesson about zealous recommendations a long time ago, with guitar synthesis. I just couldn't understand why every-f*cking-body wasn't jumping on it. I figured out it's just not for everybody and has nothing to do with logic or what I thought of as common sense. It's art. So very subjective.

    I state my case as a take it or leave it proposition. In fact I would prefer that others not emulate my approach. Makes me mo special in the long run. Guitarists are a very competitive bunch.:laugh2:
     
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  18. Dick Banks

    Dick Banks Senior Member

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    I can roll with both types of setups--my Line 6 Helix in FOH-type system, or I just my PA rig to sing through, and Vox AC15 with strat or LP. There are pluses and minuses to both--in a small, indoor venue I like the Vox, but outdoors or inside a large venue, the Helix-FOH is better. I can tell you the latter is MUCH easier to soundcheck.
     
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  19. Sean D

    Sean D Junior Member

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    It's not just hereabouts. One of the things I detest about all the modeling forums is conversations quickly devolve into pissing matches about physical amps vs. virtual amps, Line 6 v Fractal v Kemper, my dad v your dad, etc. I personally do not care what equipment one uses or what anyone thinks about the gear I use, and I get frustrated having to wade through pages of petty bickering while doing research. While I have my own opinions on the Helix and the Kemper, and reasons why I chose the Fractal product over them, I don't share them on forums because that usually tends to start said pissing contests.

    On the topic of amps v modelers, I don't understand the all-or-nothing attitude I read all over the internet. One of the main reasons I decided to go with a modeler is that I can use it in conjunction with my Mesa. The best of both worlds is available at my fingertips.

    Thank you for the compliment on my inaugural post. I am enjoying the level of discourse here on the modeling sub-forum, and I have always held MLP in very high regard as a place to get accurate information on guitars in general and Les Pauls in particular.
     
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  20. Mindfrigg

    Mindfrigg Senior Member

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    I love all types of tools..I'm just a technology whore. (Hence my avatar!) 2w tube amps...sexy modelers...whatever ya got. Drills, scroll saws, synthesizers, ATVs, compressors (air and audio), airbrushes, mechanical pencils, compasses, t-squares...whatever.
    I don't get offended at the choices others make in their favorite tools. That would be silly.
     
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