The Reasons You Hear Guys Say It Doesn't Sound Real.

Discussion in 'Amp Modeling' started by frankv, May 17, 2017.

  1. frankv

    frankv What Are You Waiting For? Premium Member V.I.P. Member

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    This just about sizes it up.

     
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  2. mmd

    mmd Senior Member

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    That was great. He was a lot nicer about it than I would be at this point. I see SOOOOO many guys that are just "disconnected" from their common-sense in regard to HOW these devices should be used. It's a simple concept - the modeler emulates an ENTIRE signal, NOT just an amp/cab. WHY would you take your ENTIRE signal, guitar -> amp -> effects -> cab -> mic, and then listen to that ENTIRE signal through a GUITAR CAB??????
     
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  3. NeubyWanKaneuby

    NeubyWanKaneuby Senior Member

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    The first time I plugged my GSP into the poweramp and into a guitar cab, I was like WTF?! It sounds like garbage. And then I realized I had to turn the cab sims off, and then it sounded awesome.

    Now with how awesome IRs and FRFR cabs are, I don't know why anyone would play the Axe/Kemper/Helix through a regular guitar cab.

    Just my humble opinion.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2017
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  4. frankv

    frankv What Are You Waiting For? Premium Member V.I.P. Member

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    Well, the answer is easy. It's the money. Guys jump into this half cocked. The problem with that is they then complain about the rig.

    You see examples of this all the time. A guy will say..

    "Yeah, I tried a (fill in the modeler) my friend had and didn't much like it"

    Meanwhile the entire rig was being played through a 2 12 Avatar cabinet with no knowledge of any of the necessary things needed to really make great tone.
     
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  5. frankv

    frankv What Are You Waiting For? Premium Member V.I.P. Member

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    Mark, you know and I know.. as well as most that frequent this sub room..... There is hardly a chance ANY guitar player would find any of the higher end modelers anything less then incredible. It really is just that simple.. We can debate this till the cows come home. The fact of the matter is most could never tell they were playing a "real" amp or one of the new "fake" ones. hahahahahah
     
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  6. mmd

    mmd Senior Member

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    True. At this point it is really "those who have REALLY tried it the right way" and "those that haven't for whatever reason". The debate isn't the "X" factor anybody wants to pick at, it's "have you tried X modeler the way it was DESIGNED to be used?" I mean, would you take your Dumble ODS and play it through a PA cab and expect the tone to be perfect? It's all about using the product the way it was intended to be used.

    Little shared fact about my Helix experience.....

    When I first got the Helix I KNEW I had to get the PA monitor to be in the right direction, BUT I was SOOOO excited to use it that I tried to figure out the best way to use it with my Rivera S120 and a stereo guitar cab. I had a non-band gig (I was sitting in as "special lead guitarist" for a local orchestral performance) and wanted to use the Helix. This was a NO-PA type of gig in a medium sized auditorium, my amp's volume would be the "blend" and it was up to the conductor to determine my volume vs. the rest of the ensemble....

    Anyway, I messed around and came up with a patch using a Bogner preamp with some effects to use into the power amp of my Rivera. I created a wet/dry routing so that I would still have enough "dry" signal to compete with the orchestra, but enough effects on the "wet" side to sound "professional". Long story short, it was passable at best. Nobody in the orchestra or crowd could tell the difference, but I knew the overall tone wasn't the best it could be. I was happy the gig was over, the conductor was pleased that it all went without an issue, and I DID receive compliments on my playing from some of the orchestra members....but I KNEW that if I was going to get the most out of this Helix thing, I needed to do it right and get a "FRFR" cab - which in my case was a powered PA monitor......
     
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  7. Sournote

    Sournote Senior Member

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    Couldn't the answer be "Because they like that cab"?
     
  8. tolm

    tolm Bigsby Junkie Premium Member

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    I always assumed that a Helix or Axe FX or Kemper or <<insert favourite new modelling tech here>> would be perfectly capable of sounding good through a guitar amp providing it *knows* that its running through a guitar amp - i.e. you switch off the cab sim and/or amp sim parts? I mean, a "Marshall In Box" pedal can sound decent through another guitar amplifier but would sound like ass (well, would not sound as intended - let's say that!) directly through a PA.

    Putting the Kemper to one side - since this models "real" amplifiers - do the likes of the AX8 and Helix not include the ability to run through a guitar amp? Is it particular difficult to set up?
     
  9. Donal

    Donal ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Premium Member

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    Speaking for the Helix - and I am sure it is the same with rest - sure you can do this BUT then you have basically just the pedals/effects and are only using a samall part of whet it can do. Secondly you are then limiting your abilities on possible sounds because every Guitar Amp and Speaker has it`s own sound and therefor you linit yourself.

    I am not sure I understand the question or what you mean is the difference between the kemper and the Helix, but as I said above yes they do, but it makes more sense to send them to a FRFR speaker so you can emmulate any guitar speaker and Amp and not be limited by/to the one you are using.
     
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  10. Dick Banks

    Dick Banks Senior Member

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    There are many posts on VGuitar of gigging musicians who run modelers (including Axe FX8 and Helix) straight into guitar amps. I've never had any success with it, but they obviously have.

    Mod edit:
    Link removed
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 19, 2017
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  11. mmd

    mmd Senior Member

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    Yes you can set it up that way, and in the example I gave I had the cab IRs off, but it is just better through the FRFR - that's the way to get the "full, proper, effect". Many guys are happy using 4-cable methods, or through a loop. For MY needs and experience, that was not the way to go. I am sure if I REALLY worked at it I could make it happen - but that's not what I wanted. I wanted to carry LESS gear to a gig, not more.
     
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  12. Falconbill

    Falconbill Premium Member

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    So true Frank. I've been playing through a Tech 21 PE, which does a decent job with modeling gear (and it sounds a lot better at low volumes than a tube amp) but it's not optimum. That's why I'm looking forward to getting my xitone wedge. Should take something that sounds pretty good to the next level . . . the way it was meant to sound.
     
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  13. tolm

    tolm Bigsby Junkie Premium Member

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    I considered the FX8 rather than the AX8 for that very reason! Easier / more flexible than carrying around a pedalboard of individual stomp boxes but would allow me to keep my valve amp.

    Reason for differentiating the Kemper was that it profiles an amp/speaker-cab rig so I don't see how you would "switch off" part of that model: can't see how the software would know which bits of the modelled sound were due to the amp vs those due to the cab, it'd all be one "black box" to the software. With the Helix/AxeFX the cabs, amps and pedals are modelled as discrete "blocks" that you slot together in a chain so seems like you should be able to just "not use" the cab (and possible amp) blocks easily.
     
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  14. Donal

    Donal ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Premium Member

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    OK understood, so the answer for the Helix is yes. You can just remove the Amp, Speaker and microphone from the chain - or just never add it if you starting from scratch.
     
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  15. tolm

    tolm Bigsby Junkie Premium Member

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    Cool - sounds pretty straightforward. :thumb:

    Of course, if anyone is running a Kemper through another amp then I would tend to concur with the "they're an idiot" perspective. :)
     
  16. cybermgk

    cybermgk Singin' the body lectric Premium Member V.I.P. Member

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    K, the Kemper can differentiate between the amp and the CAB/Mic, in one of two ways. The 'traditional' profile, where the entire chain of amp - speaker/cab - mic is profiled as one unit is called a Studio profile. When the profiling process goes through its thing it actually determines via its magic which part is the amp and which part is the rest.

    See the middle top set of buttons below. The right one says CAB, that is where you can mess with that portion of the Studio Profile. You can even use an IR cab in place of what was profiled. One such thing you can do, is turn it off. That does it for ALL outputs. You can also adjust certain outputs to turn off CAB for that output.

    Whatever the Kemper does, is really pretty darned accurate in splitting the parts apart on a Studio profile. Is it 100% accurate? Probably not.

    If you want 100% accuracy, then there are Direct profiles. These are DI profiles of the amp, which profile JUST the amp and not the CAB. This is done by using a DI device in between the amp and speaker/CAB. So you get how the amps responds with that load, all the interaction etc.

    Direct profiles then are matched with a CAB (from Studio Profiles or loaded IRs.) to make a Rig. It is just like on the Axe, one uses an Amp block with a Cab block to make a basic Preset if using FRFR. But, most use them for going to guitar CAB or power amp/guitar cab.

    And there are Merged Profiles that have both above in one profile. This profile can then be used to do whatever you want, with one profile.

    Kemper excels at running to a guitar CAB. That is exactly what was being done in the Andertons vid. I suspect they used Direct profiles.



    [​IMG]
     
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  17. KenG

    KenG Senior Member

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    One of the things I look forward to with going FRFR is the increased dispersion of the speaker system. It gets annoying trying to position myself in the "sweet spot" in front of a guitar cab.
    Since I listen to a lot of music I'm also very used to hearing the sound of recorded guitar tones so FRFR doesn't sound unnatural or bad to my ears.
     
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  18. frankv

    frankv What Are You Waiting For? Premium Member V.I.P. Member

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    Who can say what someone likes or dislikes. If the system is designed to be optimum with a certain configuration... then why run it any other way? The entire point of getting into high end modelers is to experience all the amp sims and cab IRs in the way they were designed. Needless to say that is not with a guitar cabinet. But if that is what floats your boat.. have at it.
     
  19. frankv

    frankv What Are You Waiting For? Premium Member V.I.P. Member

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    Of course you can run it through a guitar cab.. and if that is your game.. Stick with amps and not modelers because that is in effect exactly what you are doing.
     
  20. Mindfrigg

    Mindfrigg Senior Member

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    I figured all this out decades ago when using synthesis. You don't want amp coloration when emulating something. And a guitar amp through a guitar amp compounds the phenomenon.

    Sometimes it's cool. I used to run a Univox MiniKorg through a Peavey Deuce (in the '70s) all amped up and phased/distorted. Really screamed. But running a AC30 through, say, a Marshall is gonna suck in most instances and certainly won't sound like an AC30 anymore. Duh.

    I discovered gain staging by accident as a teenager...and blew up a sweet Jensen P12n in my dad's bitchin el84 powered stereo system. But how many stages of gain do you introduce? At a certain point it's a case of diminishing returns.
     
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