The MLP Blues Guitar Course

Discussion in 'Guitar Lessons' started by sliding tom, Feb 16, 2009.

  1. DW4LesPaul

    DW4LesPaul Senior Member

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    Fretboard Logic Book I and II

    OK this is a lot of questions, and sorry about that. But here we go.

    Chords/Barred
    I have a question about the Fretboard Logic Book. All of his barre majors are barred all the way across the fretboard. However, the Open D chord only plays with the 1-4 strings, so why would you barre it all the way across? Another inconsistency is that the D chord he shows barred only has the 6th string "x"ed out.

    The other one is the A chord. He shows it open as strings 1-5. But he shows it barred as 1-6 strings and all strings played.

    Should not the barre chords be played in the same form as the open chords, that being, if a string is not played in the open form, then it should not be played as a barre chord?

    Next:

    I understand now that all of the chords (well, there is one set I forget that a guitar player said was "kind of" its own chord and not derived from the Majors, theoretically, but you could still form them from the majors) are derived from the major chord forms. So that was an "a ha"moment for me.

    But my problem is what if I want to use a C without barring? Or, rather, how many times am I going to use a barre G form at the 5th fret? I'm just trying to figure out what I should be getting from the barre chord exercises that I'm seemingly missing. I mean, ok, so you can barre off the "A" open chord and make all the other major chords with it down or up the neck using the musical alphabet. One thing I was told early on is that you'll most likely be using partial chords (for blues/jazz/rock-fusion) most of the time anyway, or some form of them. So, now what? Just keep practicing major barre chords up and down the neck? I mean it seems like a trip to the Dom7,9,11 would do me more good. I'm assuming that if I can barre a C I can barre a C7 also, but then that's only one voicing anyway. And barre chords are really hard for me. I don't mean partial where you only really barre off one or two, maybe three strings, but full barre is really hard (and how often will I use a full barre anyway?). So I find myself spending an inordinate amount of practice time on them.

    Next topic question:

    I'm just finishing part one. I can in degree barre all of the major open chords up the FB and count them off fret by fret and form by form by location and vice versa--same shape different chord vs different form same chord.

    I understand how the counting works on the fretboard vs the musical alphabet being sharps up and flats down, and that between B, C and E, F there are no flats or sharps (don't know why but I just go with it because I understand this is theory and I don't even really care "why?" at this point--it is what it is).

    Scales: I already new the Pentatonic shapes, but it was interesting to find that that all of the scales are really called by the CAGED names, that is, “A” shape, “G”shape. I mean I can start with the A pentatonic form, find that open chord and move up the FB until I find the right "key." Then, the other forms just fall up or down from that position/form in the same CAGED series--I think that is correct, but I just learned or am learning it that way since yesterday.


    If correct, it makes it much easier than learning the "A minor pentatonic/blues," and then trying to move that around itself--yes, I know it's the same thing, but it just makes more sense to think of the forms, the "shapes" as CAGED forms, not "pentatonic 1st position" or what have you. You just find the key and that's it for a pentatonic shapes, which are CAGED, not 1st position, etc.

    I've just started learning the lead scale "forms" vertically. I think C and G are the only two, and again, I don't know why that is. I assume that's because due to the unique aspect of the guitar, all of the other "notes" or chord forms are contained within those two forms?

    I don't know how it all works together, or why there is only a C and G vertical shape for the pentatonic. I mean I know the light bulb hasn't gone on yet between all the theory, but I can live with that because I can feel it starting to make sense.
    So my question is, what am I not getting that I should be getting here? What should I practice now--just go to part two of the book and do that? I could stay inn part one forever it seems--lol--0and not "get it."
     
  2. sliding tom

    sliding tom Senior Member

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    Actually you don't have to bar all of the strings in a barre chord like the A shape. If you want to have the root note as your lowest note in the chord then just skip the e string - same with the d shape. But: the string below your root at the same fret has the fifth of the chord and sometimes you will want that note so it makes sense to practice a full barre also.

    Learn all your basic chords in all positions and be able to name them. First because like you mentioned even those that are difficult to finger (like the G shape) you'll most likely play them in partial shapes and recognizing your basic chord shape will be immensely helpful. Second: going beyond the basic major chords (making them minor plus adding additional chord tones like the 7th) will suddenly make them easy to finger.
    Example: a d shape is difficult to finger in its basic shape but a piece of cake as a dom7. Same with the G shape: just using the middle four or top four or bottom four will get you where you want to go. There's an instrumental passage in "Sweet Home Alabama" for example that uses the middle four strings in a g shape partial barre.

    There are chords that don't look like they are being derived from the basic forms at first but come to think of it: if the shapes are connected directly in the CAGED order there must be hybrid fingerings - part one form and part the next or prior.

    Third: to find all the notes for playing lead easily you need to know where they are on the fretboard and this is - in my opinion - quite easily acchieved by knowing your chord shapes and positions and the way the related notes are layed out in relation to the chord shapes




    If I remember correctly these "lead patterns" are not labeled "C" and "G" patterns but just numbered I and II. It's not about the keys - but the lowest available patterns: C major / A minor and G major / E minor. As soon as you move them up the fretboard you can add shapes below C and G and start from a different shape below them.

    Also these "patterns" are only suggestions for the most easy navigation across the fretboard - you can always choose a different route.
    How you go from one note to the next (just finger them or slide into them or hammer /pull-off) gives your playing a certain character that'll make it as an example sound "bluesy" or corny.
     
  3. DW4LesPaul

    DW4LesPaul Senior Member

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    Thanks for all of that. I very much appreciate it.

    "If I remember correctly these "lead patterns" are not labeled "C" and "G" patterns but just numbered I and II. "

    Page 26. I'm rereading it now.

    What is confusing is that there are only two groups, C and G. You can start on different frets for a different "key" but the shapes are the same (C or G, no A, E, D). Can you give some color on that page. I'm not understanding why only two? I feel like I'm tring to figure out pattern recognition images on an IQ test, lol.


    "Learn all your basic chords in all positions and be able to name them."

    You mean the major chords all over the neck, including non barre forms, right? If so, that gives me something to work on for the next several weeks. yay!

    I have also been discussing this topic with people in coffee shops and anywhere I see a guitar player that will listen. Some of them ask me to play what I know, which I do, and then the consensus is that I need to start picking songs I like and playing them, both the chord rhythms and melodies and leads, even if I don't get the theory yet, and also start playing chord progressions and chord octaves. Do you agree with this or not at my stage (6.5 months).
     
  4. DW4LesPaul

    DW4LesPaul Senior Member

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    Looking at the major chords along the neck, they are simply as they are on the book. I keep seeing these patterns but cannot put them all together spatially yet. I see the importance of knowing the CAGED major notes all over the fretboard, however.

    What about F and B, though? How do you find them? Would you start with an A chord form and then move up two frets for the B chord, and so on for all of the major B locations and F locations using any of the other chord forms (e.g., if you started with a the E chord using whatever shape you need at the specific location, if you moved that chord form from that position (E Chord), up one fret, would you get the F chord?
     
  5. sliding tom

    sliding tom Senior Member

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    Exactly - it's all in the book there....:)
     
  6. sliding tom

    sliding tom Senior Member

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    Yes, at the your level it makes perfect sense to learn songs - start with the chord sequences and try to figure out how and why the chords relate to each other - that way your theory will come together bit by bit and in relation to real mucic. As we're in a blues guitar thread you could start with learning the chords for a blues progression in any key and be able to tell which one is tonic, subdominant and dominant.
     
  7. DW4LesPaul

    DW4LesPaul Senior Member

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    So, find the chords of a song and play through them, and so we are talking about the rhythm of the song here, not a any leads?

    Second, so last night I started playing partial chords along with the full barre major chords, like using just the bottom three strings, or top two etc. It just seemed intuitive because I kepth thinking how would I use a full barre chord all of the time, or a tritone. Wouldn't it be a better phrasing to use two or three notes out of a full chord instead of all of the notes, as long as it sounded good or better? Should I avoid that thinking and practice for now? Is this mislead thinking?

    Would the chords you gave us earlier in the the thread, the 1-4-5 12 bar qualify for that? I have been playing it also along with the book's information. I've also started practicing the D9, just because I like it.

    And today I will read about tonic, subdominant, and dominant.

    Thanks again. I think I may be seeing some idea of the logic behind the fretboard, and generally how to "phrase" things. But, it's still very, very murky at best.

     
  8. Codeseven

    Codeseven Senior Member

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    Keep asking questions DW4LesPaul, the answers are explaining allot of stuff for those of us following this thread :thumb:
     
  9. DW4LesPaul

    DW4LesPaul Senior Member

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    Good to know. I have been known to annoying people with my questions.

     
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  10. DW4LesPaul

    DW4LesPaul Senior Member

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    I just wanted to post something I saw early on using the Circle of fifths to find chord progressions. I think this is also a way to do it.

    1A 2B 3C 4D 5E 6F 7G

    Key of C would be

    3C 4D 5E 6F 7G 1A 2B

    So you start with the key, and just count the alphabet off from the key or tonic.

    C = I (count 1,2,3,4 to get. . .)
    F = IV (count 1,2,3,4,5 to get . . .)
    G = V

    So a key of "C" I, IV, V progression is sure enough C, F, G.

    You always count the Key or Tonic itself in order to get the progression, that is, the IV and V chord.


    With that said, I still have no clue how to use which chords with which scales as I play a scale in order to improvise through the scale's notes, that is, note, note, note, chord, note, chord, or whatever. That still remains an unopened door for me. Or, why it is that I can move any shape of minor pentatonic up 3 frets and get the major pentatonic?

    Another question I have is let's say you have two minor pentatonic shapes that come next to each other. You can move the bottom one up 3 frets so it covers the top one. Now you have the top one that is in Minor and the bottom one, that you moved up three frets, becoming a major. And you can play them around each other in the same Key of A. So that I get. (I mean I get moving up three makes it major, but I do not get "why?" that is.)

    Question: What if you wanted to play one of the pentatonic shapes other than the one below the one you are playing over the one you are playing and in the same key, as in the example above? Is that even possible?

    The pentatonic shapes are really called the same thing as the major pentatonic chords CAGED or five shapes

    C shape
    A shape
    G shape
    E shape
    D shape

    So if you were playing an Am pentatonic, and all of the shapes are now Am, you could move the E shape up 3 frets over the G shape and play a minor G pentatonic shape with a major E pentatonic shape over it, all while staying in the key of A.

    But you cannot do that with G and D, for instance?
     
  11. huw

    huw V.I.P. Member

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    Not annoying at all - without questions there are no answers.

    :)

    If there are too many questions at once, though, it can be a little awkward to answer then all. ;)
     
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  12. sliding tom

    sliding tom Senior Member

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    Agreed - not annoying.....

    ...but perhaps...a bit beyond the scope of this thread,....maybe...:hmm:

    :)
     
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  13. huw

    huw V.I.P. Member

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    Well, stick to the key - use the chords and scale from the same key and you're set.

    You gave the example of counting up the C major scale to get your I IV & V chords : in this case C F & G. Right - so use those chords to make up a 'song', and then use the same scale that you counted up to play over it.

    So, just off the top of my head :

    C/// F/// C/// G///
    C/// F/// G/// CGC/

    Strum through that, & give it a kind of country rock, Tom Petty feel. Now use the C major scale (in any position) to improvise a few leads over the top.

    It's that simple.

    I think you mean move it down 3 frets :

    Gm pent

    e 3 - 6
    B 3 - 6
    G 3 - 5
    D 3 - 5
    A 3 - 5
    E 3 - 6

    down three frets becomes G maj pent

    e 0 - 3
    B 0 - 3
    G 0 - 2
    D 0 - 2
    A 0 - 2
    E (0) - 3

    Now the reason that this works is because the scale patterns are not symmetrical, so starting from a different fret gives a different set of intervals from the root.

    Just look at (and play) those two scales I just tabbed out. The note G on the 3rd fret of the low E string is the root of each scale. So if you are thinking of those two scales as being the same shape then the root note is in a different place in the shape. Can you get that bit? For the Gm scale, the root is the lowest note of the shape on the low E string; for the G major scale the root is upper note of the shape on the low E string.

    So each scale will give you a different set of intervals from the root, even though the 'shape' appears the same.

    Try writing down the names of the notes each of those two scales give - just for the positions I posted - and see how they differ, and where they are similar.

    Same answer - each 'shape' is giving you a different set of intervals from the root.

    It's possible, but the results will vary depending on the combination of shapes that you use. Rather than list all the possibilities here I'd suggest either a) try it & see what you like; or b) don't worry about it yet, and let the book present things in the order that it does,

    Same question - same answer. Combining shapes that are not 'one letter apart' won't give the same maj/min mixture that you get from combining adjacent ones.

    :)
     
  14. huw

    huw V.I.P. Member

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    :thumb:

    Could be, Tom. I wonder if that Fretboard Logic book deserves its own thread?

    Maybe I should actually read it! :laugh2:
     
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  15. sliding tom

    sliding tom Senior Member

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    Thanks for that post, huw - couldn't put it any better. :)
     
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  16. sliding tom

    sliding tom Senior Member

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    I think it's a great learning tool for mapping out the fretboard for anybody starting out.:)
     
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  17. DW4LesPaul

    DW4LesPaul Senior Member

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    Chord Key
    OK so finally I get the "key" thing in a rudimentary way. So just to reiterate, if I wanted song in C, I'd find a chord progression in the key of C, or the tonic would start with C. I was just confused as to what a "key" chord progression was.

    Scale Key
    I understand that the same shape moved around the fretboard will hit different notes. So, I assume that moving down the fretboard 3 frets means that you will hit the notes needed to make the scale form a major scale, that is, if you are playing in a minor scale. So, I get that now.

    So I guess my next question is, how do you find the "key" of a scale? I'm assuming that since you can move the entire scale down three frets and change it to a major, you could also move up or down to change the scale's key?

    As long as I know three things, I will eventually figure out the theory behind it:
    (1) What a chord KEY progression is. (I know that now.)
    (2) How to turn a minor scale into a major scale. (Got that).
    (3) How to change or find scale keys (don't have that yet!)

     
  18. DW4LesPaul

    DW4LesPaul Senior Member

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    New question.

    Yesterday I was watching a guy play and asked him what chord he was playing, and he said B. I said isn't that derived from the A barre form, and he said yeah, but you don't want to play it like that. He was playing it differently. Can anyone add some color to that? In other words, instead of barring down the fretboard, how do I find alternate voicing that don't use the full barre shape from the major chords? This is important because the alternate voicing may sound better than the voicing you would get just barring one of the major chord forms, and two, it may be easier to hit. (He was playing it near the 4th fret, if I remember correctly, which is why I asked if it were derived from the A form barre at that same location or near it.)

    I guess you could barre the E form at the 7th fret, but aren't there other ways to play a B other than barring the major chords--even if it isn't technically a B chord--and the same with other chords too.
     
  19. huw

    huw V.I.P. Member

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    B chord; 4th fret?

    I'll stick my neck out & guess : was this what he was playing...

    e x
    B 4
    G 4
    D 4
    A x
    E x

    ...fingered with an index finger barre across the 4th? That's actually how I play a B quite a lot of the time.

    If I'm right, and that is the way he was playing it, then it's actually derived from a 'G shape', which would look like this if you played all 6 strings...

    e 7
    B 4
    G 4
    D 4
    A 6
    E 7

    ...but as that is too much of a handful, the reduced form is an easier variation.

    That illustrates exactly how you go about finding smaller chord shapes - start with one of the more usual shapes, and ignore anything that's hard to grab in a hurry... :laugh2:
     
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  20. DW4LesPaul

    DW4LesPaul Senior Member

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    Thanks, and indeed. I've now started playing partial chords with my scales when I practice them--right after running up and down the FB with the major chords (ugh, but necessary).

    Been using a D9 around the FB using partial strings at specific points in the scale phrasing. I really needed that because I am getting a little excited about it. It sounds so much more sophisticated to play a scale suing partial chords through it, although it would not technically be "the scale" itself. Playing -13 notes solo,then changing to a partial chord, 2+ notes together is much more rewarding. Harder too, but that is exactly what I wanted to learn in the first place.

    I also took the first bar of the Beatle's song I feel fine (first bar), and found the fingering pattern that is the most efficient. It's a great riff, and easy after I found the efficient way to play it--and it moves pretty fast. I just bar off the 5,6 and the 4,5 strings at the 10th and 12th fret. Then it's just a matter of timing.

    A Guitar Center employee clued me in on something that is so obvious, but I wasn't picking it up. I was saying that I was learning the Beatles song "I Feel Fine", but it was going to take me a while, and then I would be neglecting other areas just to learn the song. He said, "Yeah, and then all you know is how to play a song someone else wrote and the figerings that go with it." Exactly! So he said, "So, take a few bars of it, learn it, and rephrase it to use in your own scale or progression practice sessions."
    An AHA! moment.

    Still don't know how to find the scale's key, but at least I now know what playing in "key"means. Whatever you're I chord is, is the "key." I assume that isn't always correct, where you could have a progression with several chords, where the dominant or sub-dominant chords are the key because the tonic chord is played much less.

     

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