The highest measured DC of an orginal PAF? How high could it go?

Discussion in 'Pickups' started by Squints17, Dec 13, 2017.

  1. Squints17

    Squints17 Member

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    Ive wondered for a long time what the hottest measured PAF anyone know?

    I've also wondered how hot you could wind a PAF style pickup with 42 PE wire?

    I see the term "overwound" and "hot" thrown around anywhere from 8.3-9k. I've read that some PAF's were into the 10k area, but also heard that you can't fit that much wire on to the bobbins to get into the 10k area without going to a thinner wire.

    I'm not sure what is true.

    Any PAF gurus out there know the real story?
     

  2. Antigua

    Antigua Senior Member

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    Right about 9k. This is a good thing to be aware of, because it means that if a PAF type pickup has a DC resistance above 9k, you can safely suppose that it's using thinner wire (unless the bobbin appears to also be taller). Roughly speaking, 42 AWG has about 4/5ths the DC resistance of 43AWG, so if you gather than the pickup is using 43 AWG, you can guesstimate it's equivalent DC resistance if it were wound with 42 AWG. For example, the Seymour Duncan Screamin Demon shows 10.1k ohms. Being greater than 9k, that suggests 43 AWG is used. Doing the math, that means it's about the same as a normal PAF wound to 8k. So why did they use 43 AWG? Because f_ y_, that's why. 42 AWG has roughly 2/3rds the DC resistance of 44 AWG, so if you suspect a pickup is wound with 44 AWG, multiply the DC resistance by 2/3rds, so a Seymour Duncan JB is said to be wound with 44 AWG, has a DC resistance of 16.6k, that works out to 11k ohms 42 AWG equivalent. In that case, it's easy to see why they couldn't use 42AWG, though you have to wonder if they could still achieve the same wind count with 43 AWG. It might cut it too close and make it harder to tape up the coils.

    Also keep in mind that wire stretching, impurities and imperfections could push the DC resistance higher, even though the turn count and inductance are otherwise the same, so you'd really want to know those values, if possible. So if you get one freak PAF type pickup that shows 10k with 42 AWG, and the coil is still contained by the bobbin, I'd suspect something like that has happened.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2017

  3. Squints17

    Squints17 Member

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    That's was extremely helpful, thanks for the expertise.
     

  4. darthphineas

    darthphineas Senior Member

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    yes, overwound and hot are word that get thrown around a lot. some of the Grandpa Rock sort of players that might be used to 7.3k sometimes act as if 7.5k is going to set the place on fire! lol!

    I have a humbucker that is 10.149k with 42 Plain Enamel.
     
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  5. cooljuk

    cooljuk Transducer Producer Premium Member

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    No.
    Wrong.
    Just. Plain. Wrong.

    PLEASE STOP PUTTING OUT SUCH MISINFORMATION AS FACT.
    Again and again and again. It's getting old, Antigua.
     
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  6. Antigua

    Antigua Senior Member

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    Then what's the "right answer"?
     
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  7. cooljuk

    cooljuk Transducer Producer Premium Member

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    One right answer could be:
    You can fit FAR MORE 42 AWG wire onto PAF coils than will result in a DCR of 9k. Especially 1950's wire, which had a tolerance looser than today's NEMA spec.

    Another right answer could also be:
    DCR has little to do with how "hot" a pickup is because a 10k A3 PAF can have much less output than a 7k A5 PAF.

    In any case "Right about 9k" shows just how limited your knowledge is. Now, go ahead and back-pedal, as you always do. Those who read this, and other forums you post on, enough can not only see right thought it but even predict it, with you.

    You've been asked over and over and over by many to quality your answers as opinions based on your own personal limited experiences, yet you constantly state them as facts, often incorrectly. You're doing the community a disservice.
     
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  8. Antigua

    Antigua Senior Member

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    I addressed that in my response above.

    That's not what OP asked.

    Disagreeing with me on particular points its one thing, but this wholesale attack upon my character is quite another.
     

  9. cooljuk

    cooljuk Transducer Producer Premium Member

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    Your answer of "Right about 9k" is wrong. Period.

    Your statement about stretched wire doesn't cover it.

    The OP did ask about the hottest measured PAF. Hottest, is considered output. If you want to disagree on that, ok, fine.


    If you have problems with me questioning your character and the nature of your posts, rather than just the points you make in them, go right ahead and have those problems.

    It's exactly your character that I take issue with, so please feel exactly that way. I, just like you, don't care about disagreeing on certain points. That's called healthy conversation and debate and it's a positive thing. My issue with your posts is that you state them as facts, plain and simple, when they are not facts but your opinions. You have been called out on it repeatedly by at least several, if not many.
     
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  10. Antigua

    Antigua Senior Member

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    I actually searched on this and there was a strong consensus pointing to 9k

    http://music-electronics-forum.com/t21483/

    https://www.strat-talk.com/threads/humbucker-for-my-strat.356823/#post-2071463
    https://www.seymourduncan.com/forum/showthread.php?220823-43-V-42-AWG-output
    https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/redirect/post?p=23334777
    https://www.guitarplayer.com/gear/classic-gear-gibson-paf-humbucking-pickups
    https://forum.bareknucklepickups.co...elrkafn2dc0a0&topic=26804.msg351405#msg351405
     

  11. cooljuk

    cooljuk Transducer Producer Premium Member

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    You read it on the internet so it's a fact?

    My issues with the way you state information aside, I give you my sincere word, I could wind up some coils and enlighten you.
     
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  12. Antigua

    Antigua Senior Member

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    The substantiation of the 9k figure includes statements from three pickup winders who had put it to the test on MEF. The fact that they discussed it on an internet forum doesn't diminish their credibility. If you don't believe them, you don't believe them... but there it is.

    If anyone wants to double check those resistance ratios, you can do the math from this industry spec sheet http://mwswire.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/techbook2016.pdf . I also conducted my own wire gauge experiment a few months ago that are in agreement with those specs http://guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/7928/electrical-differences-wire-gauge-practical
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2017

  13. cooljuk

    cooljuk Transducer Producer Premium Member

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    You're trying really really hard to prove wrong something you are only theorizing about to someone who has a great deal of real world direct experience with it, both in modern and vintage examples.

    I regularly exceed 9k on modern replica PAF bobbins with modern AWG 42 wire.

    Regarding vintage examples, there is even more room to exceed that modest DCR figure with vintage wire and I can attest to having seen it myself. Of course, vintage PAFs were not usually over 9k, but the OP asked for "The highest measured DC of an orginal PAF?" and it is in excess of that figure.

    The ultimate answer, however, is that DCR has little to do with the actual output of a PAF. THAT is the answer that matters most.
     
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  14. cooljuk

    cooljuk Transducer Producer Premium Member

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    How does your experiment with hand wound Strat pickups and wire gauges relate here?

    Do you realize that you could hand wind 10 Strat pickups with the same turn counts and wire and end up in 10 different DC resistances? Hand-winding won't give you any quantifiable results. For someone with such a focus on DCR, you should have figured that out. If you think you could wind the same exact pattern repeatedly, you can't. Even many machines have trouble with that.

    Your experiments should probably use machine wound coils, especially when you are just in the leaning stage where you are still breaking wire and having trouble keeping it on the bobbins. That shows that your hand wound coils are likely to be extremely inconsistent.

    Especially for the one you broke a wire on and had to make a splice, that splice changes the geometry and the way the following layers will fall on the bobbin, even if nothing else electrically because of the joint.
     
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  15. Antigua

    Antigua Senior Member

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    The resistance per length of 42, 43 and 44 AWG wire I measured for a given wind count matches the spec sheet reasonably closely, i.e. practical application agrees with spec. It means that if you can determine that 43 or 44 AWG are used, you can determine the 42 AWG equivalent DC resistance to a useful enough degree.

    By how much do you regularly exceed 9k ohms?

    Again, if you re-read the first post, it's fairly evident that OP is simply asking how much 42 AWG you can cram onto PAF bobbins, so if you can share your own findings with that, that would be great.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2017

  16. rockinlespaul

    rockinlespaul Oxblood Addict V.I.P. Member

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    I kinda figured I would see about 10 self proclaimed experts opinions by now lol.

    So far the only real expert with real world experience here is James. Not discounting anyone elses experiences here but we all know James knows what he is talking about.
     
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  17. Antigua

    Antigua Senior Member

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    I'm not claiming to be an expert, but never the less, nobody has shown that any of the information that I have posted above is incorrect.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2017

  18. Squints17

    Squints17 Member

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    So this thread has been a lot more lively than I expected...can't say I'm not enjoying it.

    I had a follow up question after reading this again.

    .

    I don't understand the f_ y_ that's why part...Regarding how a 10.1k 43 awg would be the same as 8k 42awg pickup. Do you mean a 10.1k 43 awg pickup would sound the same as an 8k PAF assuming all other construction was identical?

    Wouldn't it just mean it's roughly the same total length of wire used?

    If you were designing a pickup to have certain characteristics and desired a measured resistance 10.1, and assuming you either can't fit or not easily fit 42 gauge wire (that is still being sorted) you need to go to thinner wire. Going to a thinner wire would increase resistance, and using roughly the same number of turns with the thinner 43 gauge wire as you would for an 8k PAF would get you there.

    Wouldn't the real resistance be what matters in regard to getting the desired tone, rather than total quantity or number of turns of wire?

    Do have that right, or am I retarded?
     

  19. Antigua

    Antigua Senior Member

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    There's no reason to believe they should sound any different. When you add more or less wire to a coil, the only significant difference is the inductance. The difference in overall geometry, parasitic coil capacitance and series resistance are trivial by comparison. A difference of, say, 30 picofarads or 2k ohms series resistance does not change the transfer function of the pickup by a real noticeable amount. When people talk about "overwound" or "underwound" PAFs, it all comes down to more or less inductance, because all the other components are the same. If you start swapping magnets or pole pieces, that's another story, that will change more than just the inductance.

    All other things being equal, the inductance tracks closely with the wind count (note that it's not a linear relationship, as doubling the wind count would more than double the inductance), so 10k turns of 42AWG will give you very close to the same inductance as 10k turns of 43AWG, or 44AWG. So if you have a coil wound to 10k with 43 AWG, it will produce about the same inductance as a coil wound to 8k with 42AWG.

    This is not pickups specific either, it's true of inductors in general https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/textbook/direct-current/chpt-15/factors-affecting-inductance/ , and you can see that wire thickness is not a major factor, in fact it's not even mentioned.

    The difference in real resistance, around 2k ohms, is nearly irrelevant. It merely changes the resonant amplitude by a very slight amount. The difference is less than 1dB, which is at the edge of what human hearing can discern. The turn count dictates the inductance, and the inductance dictates the transfer characteristic of the pickup.

    Again, this is not specific to pickups, but true of all parallel LC resonant circuits http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/accircuits/parallel-resonance.html The loading presented by the volume and tone pot are far more significant when it comes to determining the resonant amplitude. 500k pots are used instead of 1meg or no-loads in order to intentionally bring the resonance down, since guitarists tend not to like the sound of a strong resonance in the first place.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2017

  20. cooljuk

    cooljuk Transducer Producer Premium Member

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    That's basically the opposite of the reality. Turn counts determine the sound more than DCR, however, when you wind a coil to the same turn counts with different sizes of wire other factors to play into it which create a non-identical sound between the two.
     

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