The Effect CAB IRs have on the preset

Discussion in 'Amp Modeling' started by frankv, Feb 23, 2017.

  1. frankv

    frankv What Are You Waiting For? Premium Member V.I.P. Member

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    I think many here that are not into modeling just yet have some questions about what exactly the effect of a CAB Impulse Response is in an FRFR setup. This post focuses on the AXE FX but pertains to any modeler that can load a CAB IR.

    It's important to note that besides the hundreds and hundreds of amp models and thousands and thousands of presets: you also have literally tens of thousands of CAB IRs to choose from. What is a CAB IR? Quite simply it is a profile of a standard guitar cabinet that has been captured. When played into a system that has a FRFR or Full Range Full frequency system. The player gets to acually have at his disposal every cabinet ever made. He can then shape his tone even further then a simple preset choice.

    This file is simple me playing an Em chord and progressing up with a few power chords. When I make it back to the Em chord you will hear as the chord is ringing out, the CAB IR change. AXE EDIT makes it really really easy to audition any and all cab irs in real time.

    So here ya go. Any questions just ask. The preset used is a stock JCM 800. The CAB IRs I am using are from the new Ownhammer Player Pac. The preset is never changed or altered. Only the CAB IR is cycled. The entire file is one continuous recording with no edits.

    https://app.box.com/s/7klnscadm7ihmqtf9h7kbo4fn7fc5pvy

    This is what it looks like in AXE EDIT. The first bunch of these CAB IRs were cycled in the recording.

    [​IMG]

    Now imagine the possibility of having literally a millions combinations to choose from. A Tube amp really demonstrates just how limited they are when considering what modeling at a high level brings to the table. .
     
    Rhust, jdto, Jymbopalyse and 6 others like this.
  2. Pwrmac7600

    Pwrmac7600 Premium Member

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    Great example of how am ir can effect your tone.

    Did I hear a little smoke on the water in there? Lol
     
  3. cybermgk

    cybermgk Singin' the body lectric Premium Member V.I.P. Member

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    To add on, It is also the Cabinet and Mic, or Mics AND different placements of said Mics. So player gets every CAB, but also as Miced by pretty much every Mic, including some vintage, or super expensive ones most of us will never touch. AND, there is usually an IR with those Mic(s) at different spots.

    SOME IR loaders can allow you to move the Mic around, use different mics on the same cab, and find a good fit tonally, like Frank showed in that excellent clip.

    For instance, on the Axe, when he has a particular CAB IR loaded on a preset, you can then go tweak things like Speaker size, mic type, mic distance ass air, do different motor types on the speaker, and more.

    Can you see how you can just have any tone in your head yet?
     
  4. cybermgk

    cybermgk Singin' the body lectric Premium Member V.I.P. Member

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    SOTW is a great song. Too bad so many abuse it at GC.
     
  5. frankv

    frankv What Are You Waiting For? Premium Member V.I.P. Member

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    Not by design.. hahahahah

    I wanted to just play the same over and over.. but somehow my fingers just have a mind of their won and take off. Then I have to say STOP.. hahahahah
     
  6. frankv

    frankv What Are You Waiting For? Premium Member V.I.P. Member

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    Well you can forget that. I am NOT doing an "every combination" recording. I be here for like a year. :thumb:
     
  7. Pwrmac7600

    Pwrmac7600 Premium Member

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    So today's irs differ greatly from ir's created just a few years ago. It use to be that IR's were shot using a mic that was as neutral as you could get, as to not impart any additional color into the IR. That way you were capturing the speaker much closer to the way your ear hears it. This is the way redwirez ir's were shot. This is also the reason you have mic simulation like what is found in the axe fx, which in fact is nothing more than an eq curve.

    But with today's ir's, which are vastly superior to older ir's, you have the mic baked into the IR, as IR makers now just shoot multiple ir's with different mics, creating and IR that is more like what you would hear in a recording studio if you sat in the control room with your amp mic'ed up in the other room. Or what the audience at a live show would hear coming out of the FOH. therefore the mic emulation feature, like the one found in the axe fx is pretty much obsolete,as you would not want to take an IR of a Marshall 4x12 with v30's mic with an sm57, and then place mic simulation of a royer121 on it. Not only would it be redundant, but it would not work as it is suppose to. I foresee this feature actually being removed at some point. I think it is left in there now for those people who still use redwirez ir's.
     
  8. frankv

    frankv What Are You Waiting For? Premium Member V.I.P. Member

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    This is turning out to be a good IR thread. Thanks for the relevant posts
     
  9. cybermgk

    cybermgk Singin' the body lectric Premium Member V.I.P. Member

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    Many of the original Axe IRs are f the CAB 'only' type as well. So, the Mic Sim is still viable with those.
     
  10. AllTheSound

    AllTheSound Premium Member

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    Nice IR samples franky. Its amazing how different they can be from one another. They have as much or more impact on the tone than if you swapped out the tone stack circuit on an amp.
     
  11. frankv

    frankv What Are You Waiting For? Premium Member V.I.P. Member

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    Exactly. Now multiply tens of thousands of IRs by thousands of presets and you soon realize there isn't a tone you can't get.
     
  12. mmd

    mmd Senior Member

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    HAHAHAHA, this is where it makes my head want to explode!!! I have spent an entire weekend loading and scrolling IRs, stacking and blending IRs and finding that the character of my tone changes so much!!!

    Like what Frank demonstrated, the IRs really impact the tone. I am not sure of others' "real world" experience with physical cabs loaded with different speakers, but I know that when I was in formative years of developing MY tone I experienced much of that same sound difference....it is like your amp TOTALLY changes when using a different speaker (duh, I know)!!

    As can be heard, the IRs do the same thing. It is maddening to me, lol!!! Just like when I was starting out, I know what I want to hear and why. HAHAHA, I SHOULD HAVE had paid somebody to do an IR of my favorite Rivera 1x12 with a vintage, 200 watt EVM12L - then I would be HAPPIER beyond belief. I have a bunch of Mesa IRs that have the EVM12L but they don't sound like that oversized, open-back Rivera 1x12.

    Question for you guys that use IRs regularly....

    When you use two IRs, how do you blend them? Like, in the Helix there are level controls and mix levels that you can manipulate. I am curious if other users are keeping the IR volume levels equal, or are you "blending" one into another via a level control. I started experimenting with using a close mic'd IR and a mid or room mic'd IR to get a more natural sound, but I am wondering if there are special tricks to getting the best sound. Thanks!
     
  13. frankv

    frankv What Are You Waiting For? Premium Member V.I.P. Member

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    Can't answer the blending question Mark but I will say this......

    Over the years I have had more tube amps then i can accurately count but only a couple of speaker cabinets. Lets face it. You can change out an amp head easy. a 4 12 Not so easy .. So as a result, no matter what head you plug into the speaker cabinet you are always getting the overall flavor of that speaker cabinet. That can not be changed no matter how you EQ the head.. This is very apparent in the differences a simple IR change had on the preset and thus the amp model. Some of the IR sound so different, and they should, that you would swear the entire preset was changed.

    This is something tube amp uses can't get or seem to discount.

    I was over at the regular amp room and the discussion was why Fender doesn't have a MID control on some of its amps.. I'm thinking MID control??? You have got to be kidding me. If those guys only knew of the possibilities we have already discovered. This room would be the most popular one on the forum.
     
  14. frankv

    frankv What Are You Waiting For? Premium Member V.I.P. Member

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    It's all about flexibility. I posted this as a fun clip. I wanted to put a 100 Watt Splawn Nitro head on a 8 inch speaker cabinet. Now I am pretty sure this is something that has NEVER been done in the real world. Pretty sure of that.. What would that sound like.. Well, wonder no more cause here it is again. I might add quite usable.

    https://app.box.com/s/42u1eeotcbi92gennuu7zrrxh3isvvta

    In the "real world" (I hate that term) this combo would be IMPOSSIBLE.
     
  15. KenG

    KenG Senior Member

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    The effect on overall sound from cabinet changes is pretty strong. S-Gear comes with several builtin Red-Wire IRs and you can load others but when I set up a tone and changed cabs the frequency response alone changed drastically! For me right now I basically choose a cab style and set up with that. (Closed back types are my fav)
     
  16. frankv

    frankv What Are You Waiting For? Premium Member V.I.P. Member

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    Ken, I remember way back when I first started to play in this arena.. You were instrumental in making me understand the need to have an FRFR speaker setup in my AXE FX system. I want to again thank you for that education. Because of that , I can now enjoy countless combinations and actually hear the true differences. So, BRAVO BRO. :thumb:
     
  17. mmd

    mmd Senior Member

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    Oh totally. My tone journey was a bit different than most. I had a good idea of what I wanted to hear sonically to improve my playing. I needed mids in a certain frequency and a sound that didn't break up - almost a "clean" distortion. For me, the distortion was to help overtones, harmonics and sustain. I did not want a guitar tone, I wanted the tone of a string section - more full-range, but smooth and sustained.

    Early on, I found my amp - the Rivera M/S series. Took a bit longer to find the right speaker and cab. An open 1x12 with the 200 watt EVM12L did it. I could play loud without the speaker coloring my tone too much. Once those elements were in order, every was great. Had that rig together by 1993!!

    I am happy with the tone I am getting from the Helix. It sounds like my Rivera rig.
     
  18. Pwrmac7600

    Pwrmac7600 Premium Member

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    Do you still have the cab? You could shoot an ir of it now. If not go buy the rivera cab again and track down a vintage EV speaker, shoot the ir, and then sell that ****. Lol

     
  19. KenG

    KenG Senior Member

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    As always Frank you're welcome and I'm glad I was able to provide some decent advice. I still read of a lot of folks hanging onto their tube gear and using high end modellers. The common method is the 4CM or 4 cable method seconded by using the Modeller as a Pre-amp and effects only and run into the line in bypassing the tube pre-amp.
    I say for the record right now there's no way in hell I would spend the money on a high end unit like a Fractal, Line 6 Helix or Kemper and waste all that modelling power by running it into a tube amp and cab. Hopefully later this year!
     
  20. kmasters68

    kmasters68 Premium Member

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    Frank, if you have time can you elaborate on IRs as they retain to the kemper in regard to loading and selecting. I'm drinking through a firehose here with this thing. So much to learn!
     

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