substitutes and/or extended chords

Discussion in 'Guitar Lessons' started by st.bede, Sep 24, 2014.

  1. st.bede

    st.bede V.I.P. Member

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    I have been playing a lot of triadic sweeps. I know that I can play Cmaj7 over an Amin7. I also know that I can play an Emin7 over an Amin7. I would think of that as Imaj7 over a vi-7 and a iii-7 over a vi-7. Any one want to hip me to more of those substitutions for you typical chords. A web source would also be cool.
     
  2. huw

    huw V.I.P. Member

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    Well you've already got the idea of 'removed by a third' and 'removed by a fifth' there already, which will stack up your standard extensions nicely :

    Your Cmaj7 over Am7 takes you up another extension to net an Am9, and that Em7 over Am7 gives Am11.

    You could complete the set with Am13 (by playing the notes G B D F# aka Gmaj7) or Am11(b13) (by playing G B D F aka G7). You could think of those as Imaj7 over iim, and V7 over vim I suppose. 'Removed by a 7th' this time, or removed down by a second...

    Over a Cmaj7 it's nice to make Cmaj9#11 (by playing G B D F# aka Gmaj7) or Cmaj13#11 (by playing B D F#A aka Bm7). Again, that follows the 'removed by a 5th/removed by a 7th' pattern.

    Playing the G7 instead of the Gmaj7 would generate Cmaj 11 (C E G B D F) and playing Bm7b5 would generate Cmaj13 (CEGBDFA).

    For Dominant type chords, over a C7, Gm7 gets you CEGBbDF (aka C11), Bbmaj7 gives CEGBbDFA (aka C13), and Bb7 gives CEGBbDFAb (aka C11b13).

    Any use?

    :)
     
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  3. JonR

    JonR Senior Member

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    It's about understanding diatonic (or consonant) extensions.

    So an Am7 chord can have a 9th (B) added - at least if it's in the keys of C or G. If you ignore the root, then you have a Cmaj7 chord: (A) C E G B. What you're doing, then, is playing a rootless Am7.

    Stack another 3rd on top, and that's the 11th (D). Now the top 4 notes are Em7: (A) (C) E G B D.

    Going further is risky. The 13th might be F or F# (depending on the key). F is going to sound out, because (a) it makes an avoid note with the E below, and (b) - along with other chord tones - it constructs a chord with a very different function to Am7: G7 or Bdim. F# (in key of G) could sound OK - meaning you'd now have a Gmaj7 over your Am7 - but how much you want to accent that F# might depend on whether D7 comes next (F# being an important chord tone there).

    If the chord is modal (aeolian or dorian) then anything goes. The dissonances mentioned above are only relevant in functional harmony - ie when the chord is in a progression in a key.

    Of course, modally, an Am7 could be phrygian. Then you'd be talking about extensions forming C7, Em7b5, etc. The Bb is very dissonant against the root, but that can be part of the phrygian sound - but you wouldn't use it if the Am7 was actually in the key of F major, because then the Bb note would have an important opposite function.

    Taking all the chords in C major, the possible consonant extensions (and the chords they form) are as follows:
    Code:
                  7th    extensions   upper structure chords
    C    = C E G   B        D, A        Em(7), G, Am(7)
    Dm   = D F A   C        E, G, B     F(maj7), Am(7,9), C(maj7)
    Em   = E G B   D        A           G
    F    = F A C   E        G, B, D     Am(7, 9), C(maj7), Em(7), G
    G    = G B D   F        A, E        Bdim, Bm7b5, Dm
    Am   = A C E   G        B, D        C(maj7), G
    Bdim = B D F   A        E           Dm
    Notice only the ii and IV chords can take any note of the scale as extensions (no "avoid notes"). The others are all limited, because one or two scale notes will end up a half-step above a chord tone, which means a nasty b9 interval if you add an octave between the chord tone and the extension.
    In addition, that dissonant extension may alter the nature of the chord. E.g., if you add an F to an Am chord, you make Fmaj7, not "Amb6".

    When it comes to minor keys - and certain jazz altered chords - you get a different mix of possibilities:
    Code:
    KEY A MINOR
                       7th    extensions     upper structure chords
                             /alterations
    Am       = A C E   G#       B, F#        C+, Cmaj7#5, E(add9) (A melodic minor)
    C+       = C E G#  B        D            E7 (C+ can usually be read as E+: V chord, not III chord)
    E(HWdim) = E G# B  D     F, G, A#, C#    G#dim7 (Bdim7 etc), G7, Bb7, C#7
    E(alt)   = E G#    D     Bb, C, F, G     Bb(7, 9), Fm(maj7), Gm(7), C7, Dm7b5 
    
    (lydian dominant)
    D        = D F# A  C     E, G#, B        F#m7b5, Am(maj7), Bm7, C+(maj7#5), E(7), G#m7b5
    So you can have two kinds of E7, depending on whether you take the extensions from the E HW dim scale, or the E altered scale (F melodic minor).
    You can of course add an F from A harmonic minor to make E7b9 (the one type of chord where a b9 is OK), but other notes from A harmonic minor (A, C) don't make good extensions. That's why jazz harmony tends to use those other two scales for V7 extensions.
    And those two types of E7 could also be used in A major.

    The D7 (lydian dominant) chord takes its extensions from A melodic minor, but is not used in the key of A minor. It's normally found in the keys of C# minor or E major, sometimes in C#(Db) major.

    Notice that one of the alternative chords for E(alt) is Bb7, which is a lydian dominant chord - could have a #11 (E) added.
    This means that a bII7 chord in a minor key is really the same chord as the altered V7 - only the bass note is different, and the same upper (rootless) shapes could be used for each chord. E7(alt) = Bb13#11, no essential difference; both resolve to Am.

    ...

    EDIT: just seen huw's post which reminded me about SUS chords! You can add an 11th to a maj or dom7 chord if you omit the 3rd. On dom7 chords, this gives you a few more options:

    Gsus = G C D; G7sus = G C D F.
    On top of that you can have Dm7, F(maj7), Am(7), C... You can even include the B if voiced above the C, which means any chord in C major could (in theory) be used above a Gsus lower structure.
    Any of these options might be called "G11" for short, but usually assume that means leaving out the B (safest).

    This doesn't work so well on a maj7 chord, because even if you omit the 3rd, you still get a confusing interval with the 7th.
    Eg C F G B = not "Cmaj7sus4", but G7/C, a V7 chord over a tonic bass. Possible, but for a specialised context. (and definitely not a type of C chord!)
     
  4. huw

    huw V.I.P. Member

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    Just read Jon's post & I'd better add as disclaimer to my earlier post - everything I said was assuming that someone else in the band was playing the basic chord underneath you.

    So for eg I assumed that the rhythm guitar or keys was playing a Cmaj7, over which you could play the G7 arpeggio, to generate a Cmaj11 from the combination of both instruments.

    :)
     
  5. JonR

    JonR Senior Member

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    Have you ever found a song with a "Cmaj11" in it? (Genuine query :))

    As for a G7 arp over a Cmaj7, that might well work, but as a contrasting outside dissonance, not as extensions on the base chord (IMO).

    As you know, I NEVER disagree with you - :D - so I'm interested in your view on this issue.
     
  6. huw

    huw V.I.P. Member

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    Off hand I can't think of one, true. :) To be honest, I was just 'running the numbers', but it's a familiar sound, even if I can't place it. Perhaps Debussy?

    Do you find that one dissonant? It doesn't seem to bad to me. Tricky to handle melodically, to get it to sit right, but not 'outside'.

    :hmm: Just grabbed the guitar - and melodically it seems to work a little better when the F is a sus4 rather than an 11. Ok - I concede! :thumb:

    When 'guitar in hand' disagrees with 'textbook' I'll follow the guitar! :laugh2:

    :cool:

    **cough** progressive rock in Just Intonation using septimal intervals on True Temperament guitars?**cough** :D

    :)

    Well my main view is that I still haven't had coffee yet this morning, and everything I say has to be filtered accordingly (no pun intended).

    :)
     
  7. huw

    huw V.I.P. Member

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    Ha! I though I'd found one in a Peter Gabriel tune, but it was a maj9 instead. :)
     
  8. JonR

    JonR Senior Member

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    What band did he play for?
    ;)
    Well, it's outside functionally, but admittedly only due to the F note - that's the one that needs careful handling.
    I certainly think it sounds awkward to play D F and G without including the E in between; denying that resolution.

    I.e. I agree about "tricky to handle melodically", and the reason is precisely the inclusion of the F. Without that, then yes you have all the good extensions on a Cmaj7 - er, well both of them anyway (D, A).

    It's as if - by focussing on a G7 arpeggio - you're deliberately making the "avoid note" stand out (in opposition to the underlying Cmaj7) in a way it wouldn't otherwise; because it's no problem in a scale run, or resolving to E.

    Dissonance, of course, is only bad if we think it sounds bad. There's a lot of dissonant sounds I like.
    Right. There's still the F-B tritone, of course, but I think losing the E will make those notes (C-G-B-D-F) will sound more like some kind of G7sus than a C chord.

    But it's a subtle thing, to be honest. It's going to depend a lot on phrasing.
    I always follow the guitar :). The textbook just helps me find the terminology to talk about it. ;)
    Oh yeah, that. :noway:
     
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  9. st.bede

    st.bede V.I.P. Member

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    I forgot to write this: thank you both.
     
  10. milkjam

    milkjam Senior Member

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    Frank Gambale technique book 1.
    not a "how to shred"...just a great book.
    Xm7....as a ii chord= dorian, pent/blues from root or up a whole step, or up a 5th.
    all diatonic arps, especially maj7 up a min 3rd (Cmaj7 over A min7) or m7 up a 5th (Em7 over Amin7)
    all diatonic triads especially major down a whole step or up a min 3rd or up a 4th
    diatonic 3rds, 4ths, 5ths, 6ths.
    Xm7...as a vi chord= aeolian, pent/blues from root or up a 5th, up a 4th over min7#5.
    all diatonic arps, especially maj7 up a 3rd or m7 up a 5th
    all diatonic triads, especially maj down a whole step, up a min 3rd or up a min 6th.
    diatonic 3rds, 4ths, 5ths, 6ths.
    he outlines the same principles for maj7, dominant, altered dominant and diminished chords. a goldmine of information.
    triads mapped out, major, dorian, lydian, mixolydian, minor, locrian and more, pentatonic scales and as modes...ie. D min and E min as they relate to A as the root, intervals plotted, arpeggios...etc.
    a book for people who can play but want to get better.
     
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  11. jerryo

    jerryo Senior Member

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    You guys and your chord knowledge is impressive.
    I have a hard time remembering complex chords for some reason.
    But today I woke up out of bed and had an idea.
    I will take the CAGE system shape(s),for instance the C shape
    and simply add or subtract from there to achieve the desired new voicing.
    So let's say a G ( in the C shape ) at the 10th fret.
    If I want to make it a G add 11 , I will scan the position
    for the most logical place to apply the 11th.
    I'm also seeing that for instance the 11th is the 3rd ' next time around'
    so I will try to find the easiest available major third off the root.

    I feel I'm on the right track with this idea.
    I have to think this stuff through since I type on my iPad and don't
    always have a guitar in hand at my job.
    Thanks for any input.

    Next task is to figure why are some 'add 9' for ex., and some are maj9 :hmm:
     
  12. JonR

    JonR Senior Member

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    No, the 11th is the same as the 4th, which is a half-step above the major 3rd.
    When adding an 11th, you'd normally leave out the 3rd, which (a) makes the chord sound better, and (b) makes your job a whole lot easier.:)

    The plain "11" symbol should normally be assumed to mean the 3rd is left out. I.e., it's so rare to include the 3rd that "11" can be used as shorthand for "9sus4":

    IOW, in theory, "C11" = C E G Bb D F.
    But in practice, that E-F interval sounds so bad the E is (almost always) left out, meaning:
    "C11" = "C9sus4" = "Gm7/C" = C G Bb D F, or C F G Bb D (the notes above C could go in any order).

    "add11" means there is no 7th (and no 9th either) - and probably means you should include the 3rd. IMO, the 11 (same note as 4) should go below the 3rd, so as to clash less:
    "Cadd11" = "Cadd4" = C F G E
    "maj9" means the chord contains a major 7th. As with "add11", "add9" means there is no 7th.
    "C9" = C E G Bb D (i.e., C7 plus a 9th)
    "Cmaj9" = C E G B D (Cmaj7 plus a 9th)
    "Cadd9" = C E G D (C plus a 9th)
     
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  13. st.bede

    st.bede V.I.P. Member

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    Just to throw this out and to make life a little bit easy, typically if you are in a band you can sometimes leave out the root of the chord. The bass player will be able to establish the root/chord focus. Dropping the root depends on the context. If things are too sparse then you might not be able to drop the root and still have things sound grounded. If things are busy, then it can really help to create some space and get things to gel better. The good news is, that omitting the root frees up fingers.
     
  14. st.bede

    st.bede V.I.P. Member

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    ... by the way, I use this thread everyday as a reference (not too much longer till I have it memorized).
     
  15. jerryo

    jerryo Senior Member

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    I got it now
     
  16. huw

    huw V.I.P. Member

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    Ha - it depends... :naughty:

    If we're talking about the scale, we tend to stick to numbers 1 through 8, so root, 2nd, 3rd etc... octave, 2nd (up an octave), 3rd (up an octave) etc.

    But when we talk about chords, that's when we usually speak in terms of 9ths, 11ths etc.

    A lot of it is down to the situation. If we add the note D to a C major triad, we'd say that was a Cadd9. However, if the D was instead of the note E (ie the 3rd of the chord) we'd say that was a Csus2. So in one situation it's a 2nd, in another it's a 9th... ;)

    Similarly, if we add the note F : if the E is still present then the F is an 11th, but if it has replaced the 3rd, then it's a sus4

    In a nutshell, if a note is there as an extension or alteration to the simple triad, we'd usually go with the 'upper name' (that's not a real term - I made it up), but if it alters the triad, use the lower one.

    A root is always a root (or an octave), a third is always called a third, regardless of the octave it appears in, and a fifth is the also always a fifth, regardless of octave. (Still talking about chords, not scales)

    But, as with all things when talking about music, use a bit of discretion, and don't expect that everything is going to conform to expectations - you might see a Cadd2 written down instead of a Cadd9. It's not 'standard', but we can understand it so just go with it.

    :)
     
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  17. jerryo

    jerryo Senior Member

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    Ok , its coming together :)

    (9th and 13th) sound the smoothest
     
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  18. jerryo

    jerryo Senior Member

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    Ok , here it is ( this works )

    C7 + 2 ( the 2nd) = C9 ( the 7th must be kept on all of these )

    C7 + 4 ( the 4th ) = C11


    C7 + 6 ( the 6th ) = C13

    Once I practice these for a while it's on to the minors

    I will build off of what I have so far :)
     
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  19. JonR

    JonR Senior Member

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    Right. 11 and 13 can include the 9 (optional), but that's a good way of remembering the essential formula.
     
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