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Discussion in 'Luthier's Corner' started by Barnaby, Mar 12, 2016.
ron hock is a tennis player? i thought he was a stanley bailey man
You don't remember the Hock vs. McEnroe WW (Wimbledon Wars) in the early 80's, mux?
Ron kept his cool and won the match...
Very well done, Mr. B. I am glad you showed a practical approach to "flat." I am finicky about my irons, but not so much with my plane soles. We differ a bit on "pits." I have a couple of the wartime thick-casting planes including a 4 1/2. They have pits on the soles, but a quick dressing to remove any barbs gives me a couple of "knock-abouts" that still do the job equaling my L-N's. My "premier" 04 1/2 is a 50's Record with an Australian, "Paul Andrews," tool steel iron. Getting my bevels on that iron made me glad to have a Tormek. I have not found a noticeable disadvantage to a hollow grind.
So, my sharpening routine is- Tormek, to diamond plates for flattening, Shaptons to 8000 for polishing and honing and a diamond paste- loaded flat mounted strop. I think I left your rabbet as a flat bevel with a very small added secondary. That one was quite sharp out of the box, and I did not know your preference then.
I must bow to your much greater knowledge here - for me, my primary concern about pitting is that it is often a sign of general neglect, and may thus suggest that there are deeper problems with the plane that are harder to see. If buying online (which I am often forced to do), then that is a way to avoid a potentially costly mistake...the cost being not so much the tool, but the postage! Also, the location of the pitting is something I worry about - further back is probably fine, but closer to the mouth would concern me.
Still, as I said, you have been at this much longer than I, and at a much deeper level of expertise and craftsmanship. My guess is that those planes you have with pitting are tremendous tools that any craftsperson would be happy to use.
That plane is still a wonder. As you say, it has a flat bevel with a very small secondary and it cuts like a dream. I have resharpened every other tool in my shop many times, but not that one. I will soon (honestly, it's probably overdue), but I like the idea of it having a "genuine Ole'Lefty edge".
For me, sharpening became a very simple process once I was doing a lot of it and found a result I liked. It's the same for all of my bench plane blades and chisels...flat back, 25 degrees for the primary, and 30 degrees for the secondary, using the Veritas MkII. If I need to regrind to get rid of a chipped edge, I use sandpaper on glass (80-600) for the primary bevel only. Then I polish it and re-establish a secondary bevel.
The waterstones I use are King Brand 1000, 3000, 6000 (with nagura) and then a Shapton ceramic 12000. I have others, but these are the ones to which I return. I flatten them frequently. I use a speciality ridged granite block with graphite powder for the 1000 and 3000, then wash them well to get rid of any residue and use the 3000 to flatten the 6000. Doing this every time I have a sharpening session means that they stay flat and it doesn't take much to keep them that way. The Shapton generally needs nothing. It's very hard and I also only use it for a final hone.
I tried out microbevels and other things, but found that any minor advantages were outweighed by all the fussing around.
Another thing worth mentioning is that even though the Veritas guide is great at establishing a consistent angle, it still needs to be learned as a tool for best results. It took me over a year to be able to sharpen in a clean, even line every time. My right hand is heavily dominant, so I need to be very aware of this when applying downward pressure.
Oh...and a word on plane irons. Ole'Lefty and others won't need a refresher on the debate, but it might be new to some...
I change my blades (and cap irons) to aftermarket ones by Ron Hock, and I love 'em. They're solid and cut beautifully. Other heavy aftermarket blades are equally good for that style of planing, whether by Veritas, IBC or another maker. The only potential downside is that, if the blades are too thick, you might need to open the mouth of the plane up a little, which can be tricky to do cleanly, as well as being a non-reversible modification. I've never had a problem with the Hocks on Stanleys, but can't speak for all planes.
That being said, there's a school of thought (Paul Sellers is a leading exponent, who argues that an old Stanley #4 can be made to work as well as anything else out there) which says that thinner plane blades are as good or better. They're lighter, faster to hone and generally less hassle. When Randy and I tuned up his 5 1/2 plane a while back, we sharpened the original Stanley blade and cap iron and it worked really well.
In the end, it all comes down to personal preference, I think. I've found a setup that works for me, but am not going to say that it's perfect for everyone. Also, I tend to prefer heavier planes, so thicker blades make a bit of sense in my setup. I'm no Scwharzenegger, but do have a bit of upper body strength (for someone my size, anyway), and don't mind working with even a #6 for extended periods of time. I'm sure the #7 will be fine too.
Bottom line - I hope what I've put in the video is helpful, but it's certainly not the only way of doing things!
I was born in 82, i only remember pat cash. Ivan lendl. Boris becker. Pat McEnroe and stefan Ekberg
But good work
Great work Barnaby! That turned out beautifully. I have to admit that my planes in use look worse than what you started with. I now have added this to my ever long list of things I intend to do. My chisels on the other hand, have never been better! Thanks
Great vids ! Thank you Barnaby (and now I have a good excuse to eat chocolate )
You're in the right place for it!!!
Let me be clear; I do not have the skills to build with my fine collection of handtools such as you have done many times. Now, some 45 years ago when I learned to build acoustics, I had the same floor model heavy duty Craftsman drill press and a Dremel;the Dremel so vintage it was constructed of dark brown Bakelite. So, there was a time......
Barnaby, your work is inspirational.
Hey, i have a question about planes.
How do you sharpen a blade without sharpening jig using a regular waterstone?
You register the main bevel angle on the stone, raise up a few degrees and work it, then do the same a couple more degrees up on a finer stone. Rob Cosman has covered the process in detail in these and numerous other videos:
Cosman uses 'the ruler trick', which seems to get great results in these vids, although I have never given it a try, as I worry about overdoing it and winding up with a bevel on the back which would stop proper mating between the blade and cap iron. I'm probably being paranoid.
Poro is one member here who does hand sharpening a lot and appears to be getting really good at it. I have done it with decent enough results (after a fair bit of practice), but tend to prefer the consistency and ease of a jig. If I ever get a 'Stay Set' Record plane or a Clifton, however, I will spend a bit more time on developing hand sharpening skills.
...and for those who don't know the two-piece cap iron design used in old Record Stay Set planes and Cliftons of today, it looks like this (not my photo):
The idea is that you can keep the blade and cap iron together and just remove the little bit at the end to sharpen the important part by hand as you go and keep things more or less constantly sharp with minimal effort.
Apparently, it can work well for some and there may be advantages to how it applies stabilizing pressure to the blade, but others find it fiddly or even flat-out useless. I've never had a cap iron like this on a plane but am very curious. As I said, if I had one, I'd work a lot harder on my hand sharpening skills.
Nice Videos Barnaby..
And being Mcenroe has one of the three 59 Burst Lefties & McCartney has the only other known unit, He gets the nod even though He was always arrogant & a totally snobbish @$$#ole..
I need to clean up 4-5 planes I have that where Grandpaw Gatterer's.. Great Tips..
I also need to clean up 40-50 Nicholson files that are in the shop that need new handles, & then a bucket of golf balls appear & they will become file handles..
I'm a Paul Sellers convert.
Tried his way with my own sharpening tools (I don't have fancy diamond stones) and I'm following his principles now.
If you have only one sharpening stone with two grits that's enough, though a strop would be handy too.
But if you don't have a strop (+ polishing compound), you can polish the edge even with your jeans, edge of cardboard or some newspaper.
(I guess most of these polishing tricks can be found from YouTube, there's a lot of sharpening gurus there)
Just take your time, find and keep the desired angle and rock your upper body to move the blade against the sharpening stone. Your hands are there to hold the blade, your upper body does the moving.
Remember to check your progress constantly when you're not using a jig.
I get decent (razor-like) results with 1000/6000 waterstone and a strop (a strip of leather attached to a piece of scrap wood) loaded with red stropping compound. This is the method I use most.
Of course my chisels and plane irons don't usually need much work.
Sometimes I use sandpaper on thick piece of glass or granite block.
That way I can start with really coarse grit (60, 80 or so) and go all the way up to 2000 if I want.
And finish with my microfinishing sheets (15, 5 and 0.5 microns, glued on glass plates).
And some Finnish for a fellow Finn:
Teroittaminen vapaalla kädellä on vähän konstikasta aluksi, muttei kuitenkaan mitään rakettitiedettä. Hyvin sen oppii parissa illassa, kunhan vain tekee ajatuksen kanssa.
Hierotaan terää kiveä (tai muuta hiovaa materiaalia) vasten oikeassa kulmassa niin kauan, että toisella puolen tuntuu jäyste (eli pieni kohouma/taite), joka sitten poistetaan kevyellä hionnalla. Pari vetäisyä kiveä vasten yleensä poistaa jäysteen.
Toistetaan niin kauan eri karkeuksilla, että terä kiiltää ja on suora.
Höylänterissä terän toiselle puolellekin tulee pieni kulma (toisin kuin taltoissa, joissa selkäpuoli on suora).
Viimeistelykiillotukseen käy tosiaan vaikkapa vanhojen farkkujen lahje tai sanomalehti, mutta jostain Motonetista tai vastaavasta saa tuubin metallinkiillotusainetta muutamalla eurolla, joka toimii aivan mainiosti sekin.
I get my finished secondary (sometimes called "micro-bevel") by lots of practice in how I change the position of my ring and little fingers as I "squeeze" holding the iron/blade. And, the comment about the upper body movement is right on. I almost take a step on full length stones. Except for the Tormek shaping stage, I hone in the kitchen. All of my stones and diamond plates are lubricated-flushed with a little bit of Dawn on the "stone" sitting on the divider of the sinks-held in the rubber block bases. I then set the faucet to barely drip. I use the Veritas Mk.II jig sometimes to reset angle until way down the road the hollow grind has to be redone. That doesn't happen often at all. I get the very long edge life by using my flat, diamond loaded strop. With the Shaptons and strop, I can gauge my consistency, by the appearance of wires (the burrs), thinner than a human hair, breaking off..
I restored an old #7 several years ago using electrolysis to remove the rust. That process worked very well.
Barnaby, those were totally awesome videos
Its amazing. Two years ago I wouldnt have wasted 2 minutes watching a video of restoring a hand plane, and now today I sat in rapt attention through both videos and wished they weren't over so soon
It has begun...