powered PA monitors for FRFR?

Discussion in 'Amp Modeling' started by Rhust, Jun 7, 2017.

  1. Rhust

    Rhust Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,870
    Likes Received:
    2,866
    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2012
    this is probably a dumb question, but are powered PA speakers suitable for modeling instead of the FRFR cabs?

    I have a friend looking to buy a decent modelling rig, maybe not top of the line, but maybe eventually something like an axe/kemper... for now it might be something like a line 6 firehawk or something... live it would go to the mixer via DI out, probably... but is that the best? or how close is that to a FRFR cab? and if it's decent, wouldn't it be suitable at home to use studio/PA monitors too?
     
    Donal likes this.
  2. hbucker

    hbucker Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,607
    Likes Received:
    1,202
    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2007
    I sure hope it's ok. I've been running my AX8 through two powered "15 floor monitors with good results.

    Honestly, the biggest reason I can think of to run an official modeling FRFR is if you want to get as close as possible to a simulated backline amp scenario, or perhaps the best amp-in-the-room-with-you scenario. Certainly not bad - I would like to have an Atomic FRFR or the like. But $$ forbids it right now, and the sound I'm getting from my monitors is quite good.

    I think an argument can be made that running a modeler through PA speakers will help you adjust a more accurate sound for the audience since PA speakers are probably what they will be hearing you through. I can't think of a reason why going direct with only IEMs would be ok, but using a standard PA speaker or wedge wouldn't be...

    Your results may vary.
     
    tzd and Rhust like this.
  3. carydad

    carydad Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,463
    Likes Received:
    354
    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2007
    I use an Atomic AF3 into an Alto TS212. The serves as a floor monitor in front up me pointing up. AUX goes to FOH. Setting it so the volume control only affects the mains, the PA dude has full control of my volume and loves it. It's a little weird at first with nothing behind you but the extra space quickly becomes very cool. It also helps that it is mostly directed at me so the singer can stop bitching that he can't hear himself in his 3 monitors. Just sayin...
     
    Rocco Crocco and Rhust like this.
  4. Rhust

    Rhust Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,870
    Likes Received:
    2,866
    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2012
    yea, I'm sure $$ is the biggest motivator... since I've seen FRFR setups well over $1000, that knocks a hole in any budget. and a decent PA monitor is only a couple hundred (if you don't have one laying around for some reason )
     
  5. frankv

    frankv What Are You Waiting For? Premium Member V.I.P. Member

    Messages:
    13,903
    Likes Received:
    11,945
    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2011
    Used Rocktron velocity 150 or 300 $250
    Xitone passive 1 12 $499

    Done and done. Buy once, be happy forever. Don't have the money now? Save
     
    jdto and Rhust like this.
  6. matthew bear

    matthew bear Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,978
    Likes Received:
    4,161
    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2008
    I have excellent results with a QSC K8 pa setup. I do like the Idea that my EQ tastes in my Speaker will be pretty accurate to whatever system i may encounter playing out. the audience and I will hear the same sound, that's always good.
     
    Pop1655 likes this.
  7. Rhust

    Rhust Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,870
    Likes Received:
    2,866
    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2012
    Yea honestly, I use the do out on my tube amp every week instead of hauling a cab.. it's weird to ask for more monitor some time but I like that I know what they are hearing

    I just wasn't sure if it would be decent enough for my buddy... like how close is a powered pa to a FRFR?
     
  8. frankv

    frankv What Are You Waiting For? Premium Member V.I.P. Member

    Messages:
    13,903
    Likes Received:
    11,945
    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2011
    I had high quality 3 way 8 inch powered studio monitors. My 1 12 Xitone kills them.
     
  9. mmd

    mmd Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,143
    Likes Received:
    1,884
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2012
    I gig regularly with a single EV ZLX12P. My sound is MASSIVE and translates exceptionally well to every venue I play. I also have signal coming from the house wedges, but my EV sits behind me to give me my stage sound.

    Example, camera in the room - you are hearing a blend of PA and my EV filling the room:

     
  10. tzd

    tzd Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,435
    Likes Received:
    3,223
    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2011
    This is also exactly how I do it. K8 in the back, AX8 into the PA and monitors. Results do not vary.

     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2017
    AmpedUp and cybermgk like this.
  11. cybermgk

    cybermgk Singin' the body lectric Premium Member V.I.P. Member

    Messages:
    12,261
    Likes Received:
    15,231
    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2011
    Caveat, I have NOT gig'ed with my modeler rig. So temper the following with that.

    This is more on the technical aspect. I agree with Frank, IF your going to eventually go an actual FRFR speaker cab like a Xitone or Atomic, then buy once, be happy.

    But, as shown above, a lot of live players get good results with powered 'PA' speakers. And yes, that is a nice benefit to that kind of rig, what you hear in practice, and on stage as a monitor will be just about what the audience hears.

    I will point out, that not ALL PA Monitors are created equal. Models listed above are close to FRFR, and generally have the Full Range, with CLOSE to linear Flat Response. QSZ 8, EV ZLX, Yamaha DXR series and some others have all had good results with Modelers.

    But, a lot of PA Monitors/speakers are designed to make vocals sound good, and sound like azz with modelers. You mentioned 'a couple of hundred' bucks. That price point new, you are at the point where you have some that stray further from FRFR.

    Best suggestion, is take the modeler in question to a Sam Ash or GC, and plug into all their monitors in the Live Sound section and see which you like.
     
    Rhust likes this.
  12. mmd

    mmd Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,143
    Likes Received:
    1,884
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2012
    This is exactly what I did. I tried the QSC, Alto, JBL, Yamaha, Mackie, and EV. Obviously, the EV is what made me smile but EACH of the mentioned cabs had different characteristics.
     
    Rhust and cybermgk like this.
  13. Donal

    Donal ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Premium Member

    Messages:
    12,785
    Likes Received:
    11,366
    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2009
    I`ve been thinking about this topic for a while and despite having a brilliant FRFR monitor I probably don`t need it.

    The reason being that I run my Helix to my StageSource, so I hear my tones in a certain way, then I go to the Mixer. and after that most people are actually hearing me via the PA anyway. The same applies when I would mic it or even mic a tube amp.

    So I would be just as well off, or maybe even better off, to hear myself on the same speakers as a going out to the audience. :dunno:

    I`m not changing my setup as I am more than happy with it, but my thoughts are if you don`t have FRFR going out to the audience, ehats the pint in having FRFR for your own monitor.
     
    Rhust, Sournote and hbucker like this.
  14. Sournote

    Sournote Senior Member

    Messages:
    915
    Likes Received:
    701
    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2011
    This is identical to my thinking. Buying something that sounds glorious to you makes perfect sense if you are not going through a PA. However since I plan to play out, it makes sense to me to use the same PA speaker or something very similar. That way I know what I'm hearing should be very close to what the audience is hearing (the mixes likely will be different, but my patches should be dialed in for that type amp/speaker.

    When/if this group I'm playing with does start playing out, I will have a personal monitor behind me for that "tube amp in back" feeling, but it will most likely be a DXR10.
     
    Rhust and Donal like this.
  15. northernguitarguy

    northernguitarguy SWeAT hOg

    Messages:
    25,142
    Likes Received:
    39,110
    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2009
    No hard experience here, and I'm not a modelling aficionado. The only modelling unit I've used is a Line 6 POD XT Live, ancient tech by most standards. I use it for my Rock program at my middle school workplace.

    We have tried using the POD through two different powered speakers. One is a Yorkville NX55P. The tone for clean playing is pleasing, but anything we put through that was distorted is just gawdawful. We use the two NX for monitors and don't even bother to send the POD to the board.

    Better sound comes through my Yorkville Elite E10 powered speaker. However, for jamming the 10" speaker just ends up sounding small, even though this sucker can be cranked.

    Best results, and a really cheap way to a great sounding result for us is through my old Peavey Bandit. The Bandit has a power-amp in jack, which bypasses the pre-amp entirely. Everything is controlled by the POD board, so there's no fussing with amp settings.

    It sounded pretty damn good with the original Sheffield speaker. When that developed a coil rattle, we tried a Celestion G12F-60 I had lying around to less effect. Hit the jackpot with a used Celestion Seventy 80. I sat in on a couple of songs at this week's jam and really liked what I heard. Little genius guitar kid (f**ker, plays better than me :laugh2:) plays Crazy Train with the 'Treadplate' setting, and it's crushing. My custom crunch setting, based on the Twin Reverb/RAT models has some serious girth for a Classic Rock sound.

    Total cost was $250. I dunno if this would pass the test for you all.
     
  16. cybermgk

    cybermgk Singin' the body lectric Premium Member V.I.P. Member

    Messages:
    12,261
    Likes Received:
    15,231
    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2011
    Bandits get used for that quite a bit. 70/80 is a somewhat flat speaker. I can see how it would work.

    The Yorkville N55 are full response, but not near a linear, flat response, thus the issues you had. I have a pair of EVs (meant for more vocal applications) have the same issues.
     
    northernguitarguy likes this.
  17. northernguitarguy

    northernguitarguy SWeAT hOg

    Messages:
    25,142
    Likes Received:
    39,110
    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2009
    I do believe I got the 70/80 idea from you. Whoever recommended it, it was a damn good idea. I can only imagine how great it would sound with a more modern modeller.
     
    mdubya, Liam and cybermgk like this.
  18. Liam

    Liam V.I.P. Member

    Messages:
    5,940
    Likes Received:
    2,383
    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2007
    Monitors come in 2 guises nowadays (IMHO), and probably fall into "studio" and "live" camps. I have little experience of affordable studio monitoring (but more than a bit of the expensive side of it), but would not expect much competition from it when compared to the FRFR offerings available nowadays.

    "Live" monitors are generally made for the vocals to be audible on stage. I have a particularly great sounding pair of active wedges made by Wharfedale, that I have actually used for vocal FOH at small gigs because they have amazing clarity. But they are about as far as anyone is ever likely to get from FRFR, as I am guessing they are EQ'd for feedback resistance when used with microphones.

    They do their job exceptionally well, but the ability to reproduce a great guitar tone isn't there apart from a few of the "scooped" tones from the late 80s. They just don't reproduce upper mids, and I am guessing it is by design. Monitor output from most desks I use doesn't have EQ, and the trick is always to get it so those that are singing can hear themselves, doesn't need to sound great, always a bonus if it does, but it's about getting enough back to know they are in tune. I'd go for a Peavey Bandit ahead of them, and that's not saying anything bad about them, they just weren't designed for guitar (and I could probably buy about 4 Peavey Bandits for the cost of a single one of them).

    There is a reason Xitone, Matrix and Atomic have found a space in the market. A modelling amp can sound amazing out front, especially with a decent size rig with crossovers well tuned to the speakers and amps available, but it's worth remembering that vocal PAs and stage monitors were never designed to reproduce guitar tones in FRFR.

    Just my $0.02! Would love to hear that there's something for home use that would float my boat (especially if available on the UK side of the Atlantic) but for now it's still a Fearless F115 that feels a bit too big for home use, but sounds amazing.

    Liam
     
    Donal and cybermgk like this.
  19. Sournote

    Sournote Senior Member

    Messages:
    915
    Likes Received:
    701
    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2011
    I have to ask why guitars through PA speakers never seemed to be a problem when micing a tube amp. In a medium or larger sized room or outside, most of the audience is going to hear mostly the PA, and I don't remember similar discussions saying you needed some special type of PA speaker/powered monitor for that to work nicely. Its been discussed numerous times in other threads how venues are forcing reduced stage volume with the PA doing the heavy lifting so guitar through the PA is not something new and if anything is becoming more and more common.

    I just don't understand the argument that you need something that sounds different (even if the sound is arguably "better") than what the audience is going to hear.
     
    Donal, hbucker and tzd like this.
  20. cybermgk

    cybermgk Singin' the body lectric Premium Member V.I.P. Member

    Messages:
    12,261
    Likes Received:
    15,231
    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2011
    Depends on the PA speaker. A lot of FOH are FRFR, as they cover it all, the whole mix. But, some are really designed as actual PA, (Public Adress) and Eqed for voice.
     

Share This Page