Phaez Amps [merged]

Discussion in 'The Squawk Box' started by LPV, Jun 27, 2009.

Phaez sub forum? Yes or no?

  1. Yes

    51 vote(s)
    53.7%
  2. No

    44 vote(s)
    46.3%
  1. VictorB

    VictorB Formerly LZF Super Mod

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    SIBLY and Asheville in action!

    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYROWEC6MlA]Harley Jam - Rocky Mountain Way - YouTube[/ame]
     
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  2. Sudsy100

    Sudsy100 Senior Member

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    I have to be 100% fair and add the proviso that what works for me may not work for others. I honestly think it all comes down to what style you play, what you wanna hear come out of your amp, and how the whole connection between heart/mind/fingers comes together. I wouldn't want you buying, or even considering, a speaker on my recommendation, because it may not be the sound you have in your head.

    That being said, I'm an old school rock player, and I wanna hear lots of definition, chunk & "bigness" . . . and add the saturation to suit. It's gotta be a "big stage" sound all the way. Usually, it's a lot of gain, but not metal style. But, I wanna be able to hear the notes clearly with little or no fizz, and have a nice, fat aggressive attack on tap at all times. But, there's a lot of variables in how we all approach getting our sounds (how we dial in our amps, what pedals and tone shaping we use, what axes work best, even down to the actual touch and mechanics of playing).

    Nothing is perfect, but for me, the V-30 is the best all around speaker that suits what I wanna hear. It has a nice chunky low, no fizz on the highs, and I can tweak an amp, axe or pedal to get pretty well anything I need (cripes, on one of my overdrives I have the gain set to almost nothing, the level way way up, and the tone almost full . . . use it for certain songs on top of saturation to get a snarly bite with a heaping helping of freight train thrown in). Plus, the V-30 sounds perfectly fine for totally clean stuff like ballads and soft blues too. In one band, we do everything from The Wall to Billy Idol to Blue Rodeo to Stevie Ray to ZZ Top to Badfinger to a couple of clean ballads, and the V-30 is a cone that covers all those bases for me. Of course, that's using different axes and tone shaping as needed.

    Here's a couple of examples of what I wanna hear. One is a local Toronto player whose band is touring again after a lotta years off, and the other is one everyone knows (Winery Dogs). For these styles only, when I find a combination of axe/amp/speakers/pedals that gets close to these kinda things I know I'm in the right direction. But, each of us here is different. To me the common denominator is that when you hear a really good sound & style that tickles your personal guitar player endorphin centers, that's the right path to explore. I can get pretty close to both the sounds in the clips with the various rigs I use (including the 6V6 Daisycutter paired & blended with a clean amp in a dual rig setup), and the V-30s seem to play well with them all.

    Keep in mind that the clips (or anything I've said) aren't specifically related to Phaez. It's only about getting the sounds we hear in our head . . . so the mojo, motivation and joy can follow. The clips are just a reference point or platform to illustrate the general direction where I personally go. Whether I'm using a Phaez, Hiwatt, Marshall or whatever, I want that big, fat chunk / sustain with definition / and "hit you in the solar plexus" sound. If that's anything close to what you're after too, then I'm just adding some fodder for the discourse. Bottom line, after trying a zillion cones, the V-30s simply work for what I wanna hear.

    BTW--the first clip below is a crappy web cam, so it really doesn't do things justice. I don't wanna post a rip from the DVD because the guys are friends and times are tough enough selling product. But, the style of the guitar player (Gino) is something that I really gravitate toward, so WTH . . . a crappy cam will have to do.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gukz8Q4o5GI&t=0m51s


    And, the rhythm sound Ritchie Kotzen gets in this tune is dynamite, IMHO. The sound is huge, but the notes are right there. It allows him to anchor the musicality of the song.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0scTBkZjASw

    Suds . . .
     
  3. NYC LP player

    NYC LP player Senior Member

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    Thank you for this as it really helped in my search which sorta ended today.

    The way I see it the p12q will end up getting replaced so I will end up buying 2 speakers so I have two chances to get this right.

    I definitely went down the rabbit hole on this one.

    I really liked the sounds from the V30 but something kept stopping me and the weight didnt help. To me from clips it sounds more modern but in others it sounded spot on. There does seem to be some distinct Slashy-ness in some vids which isnt my sound (mine is terrible regardless of speaker).

    At the end of the day it is like you say...you never really know what it will sound like in your rig till you try it.



    Final train of thought (headphones suggested)

    Canis Major -> Red Fang (better highs)-> V30 (not overdoing chime)-> Heritage G12H30 75hz (less modern) -> Weber 1230 in ceramic (doping options and Weber quality) -> WGS Reaper (clips with SIBLY, rave reviews) vs Retro 30 -> Reaper vs WGS Intruder

    Reaper vs Retro30 - 5:10 in doing AC/DC helped
    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-YYIqhDbfM[/ame]

    WGS Reaper vs Invader
    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZgNtKRh6WY]WGS Reaper vs NEW Invader speaker shootout - YouTube[/ame]

    The cleaned up neck and the heavy grit sold me on it and at $79 shipped from MF even if I dont love it I can find something to compliment it for the extension cab or swap it.

    Basically I wanted lower gain AC/DC for when my volume is on 7 but something that will still keep it together when I inevitably go to 10.

    All this work, watching, and research just to end up with someone's version of a beefed up Greenback.

    Sudsy any preference between the v30 (UK or Chinese), Retro 30, and Webers 12V? I think my second speaker is either a v30 type or the 12H30 55hz bass cone type from Celes/Web/WGS to get what the Greenback-ish doesnt have on the bass side.


    WGS Tone Chart
    http://wgs4.com/sites/default/files/WGS2013.pdf



    Apologies to anyone who doesnt care about some novices speaker selection....hoping this saves someone some time someday.
     
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  4. wrc73

    wrc73 Senior Member

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    A V30 pairs well with a G12M for a little more crunch, but also pairs well with a G12H 75hz for a little more articulation and high end. I have 3 V30's, 2 G12M's, and 2 G12H's, one 75 & one 55hz. The V30's play well with most greenback type speakers and do great on their own if you can turn the volume up a little. Right now I have a V30/G12M combo for the extra crunch at lower volume.

    Take a look at eBay, lots of UK made V30's available for les than the new Chinese ones.
     
  5. csweldon

    csweldon Member

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    Love the speaker information, don't have a lot of experience with any celestions, except the greenbacks. Thanks!
     
  6. kuhboom

    kuhboom Senior Member

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    I have the same combo in my 4x12, 2 Greenbacks up top, 2 V30s below. Sounds great at any volume. I also really like the WGS Reaper HP in my 1x12. To me, it sounds like the best elements of the V30 and G12M.
     
  7. Sudsy100

    Sudsy100 Senior Member

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    Heya, NYC . . . forgive me for the long posts . . . I just try to be thorough, detailed and helpful, but that takes up too many paragraphs at times (to state the obvious ;)).

    First off . . . yes you're right about the V-30. It can get "Slashiness" for sure because of the mid hump, but the saving grace is it takes dialing in and tone sculpting very well in order to avoid any of that said Slashiness. It's kind of a compromise speaker (aka a go-to cone) . . . the chunk makes up for some other shortcomings, but it always gets there in the end. BTW--you said something about "all this work you're doing" to pick out speakers. IMHO, it's never wasted time at all. Think of what pro touring players go through to get the sounds they want . . . I don't think we should consider ourselves any different. Do whatever it takes to make your rig like you like it . . . that's a good credo.

    Just as an aside, a couple of other things that came to mind when pondering . . . 1. The "throw" and "blend" of the speaker in a live situation with full band is something that's really hard to peg in a clip or non-band assessment, and 2. The SPL can be a big factor in all respects. Too low and it gets lost / too high and it's aggressive to the point of being unusable. Of course, a lower rated SPL cone can sound louder than a higher rated one if the frequencies the ear hears are accentuated. 'Nuff 'bout that, though . . . I think most people would agree something between 98db and 100db is in the right wheelhouse.

    On to your observations:

    I really, really like both the Retro 30 and the Reaper in those clips. There's the proviso that we're not that guy doing the clips, but he's making them the way they should be . . . playing coherent chords, rhythm parts and combination riffs. When guys play leads all over the place, hammer on a couple of power chords, or over-process speaker clips, IMHO they're not very helpful at all. It's almost like some guys are reluctant to play a good foundation/rhythm part in some clips . . . probably because the saturation of the lead sound is easy, and it takes way more work and thought to nail a tight, articulate heavy chording sound.

    Anyway . . . I would have no problem all buying the Retro 30 (or maybe the Reaper) based on those clips. Personally, I prefer the Retro 30 (surprise ;)) because it's tighter and a tad less saturated than the Reaper. Kinda reminds me of a G12H-75 Creamback a bit . . . only a tad smoother. The Reaper reminds me of a Scumback M75, but with a little less harsh/prominent high end (in a good way). I'm impressed with both. The Retro might be a little less forgiving, and the Reaper "might" be the slightest bit muddy depending on what you throw at it, but both would be good. I'm not a huge fan of combining speakers in the same cab (I know that's a whole other debate), because I find they tend to fight each other more often than cooperating, but sometimes there can be a magic combination. Anyway . . . IMHO, you'd be happy with either the Retro 30 or the Reaper depending on your style. In fact, I might just track down a couple of Retro 30s. For me, they sound pretty freaking good, and would be a no-lose purchase. Like I said, they sound like a nicely broken-in G12H-75 Creamback.

    As to the Invader, it sounds really, really good to my ears. Definitely a cleaner speaker, but it has the definition and "point" I'd like. The saturation sounds just a tad scooped compared to the Retro 30, but it's still very good. Frankly, I'm surprised at the Retro and Invader. Based on those clips, I could see them easily matching up to a Celestion (contrary to all WGS speakers . . . some I consider very good, and some aren't quite there . . . but when they get it right with a specific speaker, they're great).

    All that being said, others might hear something totally different out of the shootouts. They're all good, but if I had to rank the three in order:

    1. Retro 30 - I'm really impressed with this one. It might have to be cranked to get the full Monty of what it has to offer, but the tone/timbre/voicing/responsiveness is as good as can imagine needing for a chunky rock style.

    2. Invader - Pretty darn close to the Retro in ranking. I hear a lot of highs, but they're kinda balanced out when cranked. It seems like the Invader might suit some styles better, but I have a hunch the Retro 30 could be dialed in to get a really close sound to the Invader. I’d love to hear one in-person . . . I'm not sure if the slightly scooped sound I heard is on the mark. You never know, it might not be quite as aggressive, which could be a good thing.

    3. Reaper - Good if you want easier saturation. Might sacrifice some chunk and clarity, but OTOH, it'd probably be better at lower volumes (kinda opposite to what WRC rightly said about cranking the V-30 to get the most out of it). It might suit your style the best if you like a gritty earlier break up and "easy to play" saturation.

    BTW--to answer the question about UK V-30s vs Chinese V-30s, I prefer UK ones. But, that could very well be because they're all broken-in by now. I honestly don't have a 100% definitive answer because I've never played a "fresh outta the box" UK V-30. IMHO, the Chinese ones are as good within a 10% to 15% margin max. I'd bet in a blindfold test, not many people would be able to tell the difference. But all things being equal, the best V-30s I have are UK ones.

    Suds . . .
     
  8. NYC LP player

    NYC LP player Senior Member

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    Awesome write up. Yeah I think the Invader will be close to the v30/Retro type with a bit less saturation. It shipped today but the cab wont be done for another 1-4 weeks so will have to wait for the final test.
     
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  9. Sudsy100

    Sudsy100 Senior Member

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    In all honesty and sincerity (and willing to testify before a judge and/or be signed & notarized ;)), I'm 100% certain you can't go wrong by even an iota with either the Invader or the Retro 30. Both are really freaking good sounding speakers. I was kind of shying away from WGS stuff after so-so experiences owning a Vet 30 and a ET-65 (nothing against those who like them, of course), but the Retro and Invader sound like different creatures altogether. Thanks for the heads-up about them! I'm gonna seriously consider grabbing a pair of Retro's. Maybe we can compare notes down the line.

    BTW--it's a good thing there were those 3rd-party clips you dug up. I just took a listen on the WGS site, and they used totally different amps for both of the clips. Mesa Dual Recto and Mesa Lonestar for the Retro 30 / Orange Rockerverb 50 for the Invader. WTH are they thinking??? How are you supposed to compare a speaker played with a super saturated Dual Recto against another played through a chunky Rockerverb. I don't get it . . . dumb (just MHO . . . but dumb just the same).

    Edit: BTW, NYC . . . remember how we were talking about fitting the gear to the player's style. Just found this vid of a guy comparing a Veteran 30 and a Retro 30. Think it speaks for itself, but I'd have to say the Retro 30 sounds like ka-ka for metal . . . at least if you're using an Ibanez PGM301 and a Laney VC50 and tuned to drop D (which is good for we rock n roll players, I'd guess :cool:).

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-noVcbZ1uY&t=1m23s[/ame]
     
  10. wrc73

    wrc73 Senior Member

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    It's a good combo, there are some amp manufacturers out there using this combo as well, I just can't remember their names right now. The V30 and G12H 75 is a really good combo too, a little tighter and sharper than the V30/G12M combo. I also really like running 2 V30's but to my ears in this particular cab they are a bit boxy and fizzy when playing at lower volume which is what I mostly do. I have two 2x12 cabs; one with a G12M/G12H75 combo and it is staying that way, and the other which I switch around fairly regularly. Hell, since I moved my gear out to the garage last year it seems to change from day to day, and I swear that it seems like it is dependent on the humidity. I think that is why I have been switching up the speakers so much in my 1936 cab, one day two V30's sound great, the next day they are boxy and fizzy but throwing in a G12M fixes it right up, but the next time out the G12H/V30 combo seems to be the ticket, then the next time it's too bassy...and the rotation continues. I've got to build an addition on the house so that I can get my amps and speaker cabinets back in a more climate controlled environment. Don't get me wrong, my garage is insulated and maintains the temperature really well for a garage, but it is still just a garage. Oh well speaker rolling is fun so I'm not complaining.
     
  11. NYC LP player

    NYC LP player Senior Member

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    Well I got 3-4 hours on the WGS Invader 50 and so far she seems like a keeper. I ended up making some EQ changes and even some pickup height and pole adjustments but the range and dynamics are incredible.

    - In a ported cab the clarity is amazing and sorta its own thing
    - In a closed cab is sounds like a well worn Greenback with none of that distance
    - Cone is treated so it is not shrill or harsh right out of the box
    - Doesn't seem that heavy but web says 4.4kg or 9.7lbs


    Demo in the current cab coming soon.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    This demo illustrates the clarity though it can be warmer too

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_9jL5X31dU[/ame]
     
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  12. Penguin

    Penguin Member

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    Can you guys tell me about the Jackal cleans? I've only played the SIBLY so a comparison would be great. I'd also appreciate clips that someone might have.
     
  13. VictorB

    VictorB Formerly LZF Super Mod

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    McClane has shipped....

    Now I play the waiting game, lol.
     
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  14. wrc73

    wrc73 Senior Member

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    Looking forward to your review of the McClane! It would be really cool to hear an A/B comparrison between the McClane and SIBLY, just saying...:fingersx:
     
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  15. csweldon

    csweldon Member

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    YES. Let us know and enjoy!
     
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  16. VictorB

    VictorB Formerly LZF Super Mod

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    It's due to arrive next Wed...

    There will be a full report!
     
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  17. NYC LP player

    NYC LP player Senior Member

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  18. Sudsy100

    Sudsy100 Senior Member

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    Huge improvement. The Invader was just about the best choice you coulda made. Very impressive.

    BTW--was gonna pull the trigger on pair of Retro 30s, but had to give it a second thought. The clips are all over the place . . . in some it sounds tight and rock n roll . . . in others it sounds too modern and scooped. If WGS used the same amp for all their website clips, the decision would been easier. Even at $95 USD a pair for lightly used ones, it woulda cost $160 CDN total to ship 'em to Canuckland with tax.

    But based on what I heard from your Invader, I'll probably hold out until a pair of used ones come up. Thanks!
     
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  19. singlecut

    singlecut Senior Member

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    man, im sure glad I don't have good hearing like you guys seem to have. it would drive me crazy. I'm lucky I'm so easily satisfied
     
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  20. mercinariesgtr

    mercinariesgtr Senior Member

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    i have a wgs vet30 and cl80 together in a 2x12(closed back) and it sounds good with my DC (and my other amps for that matter)
     

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