Orange Drop Caps Specified

Discussion in 'Tonefreaks' started by mzblues1, Feb 24, 2018.

  1. mzblues1

    mzblues1 Member

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    I just got a 1992 Gibson Les Paul Classic Plus which I was thinking of modifying with a set of Bumblebees. I just opened the back and I found the attached inside, and was curious if this meant that the wiring was already modified by someone with new Orange Drop Caps sometime after 2012?

    The reason that I am asking this is that the attached Orange Drop Cap with a model number CDE225P100V [223K 1433] (according to the history of Orange Drop Caps below) would be one that was made when the company was owned by Cornell Dubilier Capacitor (CDE), (which took ownership after 2012).

    1) Is my understanding correct?

    2) Also, can you describe what the difference is in how it affects it's the sound when using the Orange Drop Caps rather than using Bumblebees?

    ---------------------------------------
    Orange Drop Cap History & Timeline:
    1960s: The 'Orange Drop' capacitor was developed by Sprague Electric.
    1992: Vishay, a leading manufacturer of components used in electronics for industrial and military/space application, acquires 'Orange Drops' from Sprague. SBE Inc (dba SB Electronics) takes over production of Orange Drops as Vishay/Sprague.
    2012: Cornell Dubilier Capacitor (CDE) acquires 'Orange Drops' from SBE.
    Current: All Orange Drop Caps manufactured today are by Cornell Dubilier Capacitor (CDE).
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Tubejockey

    Tubejockey Member

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    Bumblebees will make your wallet a lot lighter.
     
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  3. Bobby Mahogany

    Bobby Mahogany Senior Member

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    Most likely the caps have been changed.

    The difference in tone between the Orange Drop and the Bumblebees...
    that's a whole thread in itself for sure.
    The issue has been discussed many times:
    do capacitors bring such a distinguishable difference in tone?
    For many: Welcome to the World of Cork Sniffing!

    There is a Youtube (at least there was) video that explores the subject with a rotary switch
    plugged on many caps. Can you hear the difference?

    Also, the Bumblebees you're talking about, are they real? Are they just "painted",
    are they just repro look-alikes that aren't even PIO's? (Paper in oil).

    A 50's wiring harness would have more impact than the caps alone.

    Much food for thoughts.
    :hmm:
     
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  4. kiko

    kiko Senior Member

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    Well said! :applause:
     
  5. LtKojak

    LtKojak Senior Member

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  6. Classicplayer

    Classicplayer Senior Member

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    I have Orange Drops in my 2000 Classic. The change in sound/tone was subtle in my case; when these caps replaced the original ceramic disc. caps. The guitar immediately got "quieter" in that there was an absence of circuit noise, pops, clicks, etc., thus making the Classic's tone more "hi-if". I also detected a slight increase in the audible frequency range with a bit more highs detected. It was worth the change IMHO.


    Classicplayer
     
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  7. AJK1

    AJK1 Senior Member

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    I use Orange Drops and they are great
     
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  8. KP11520

    KP11520 Senior Member

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    I LIKE Mallory 150 Caps. Like 65 cents each delivered when you buy a few from Newark.

    ODs are way too expensive! LOL And DON'T sound better.
     
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  9. rtTX

    rtTX Member

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    This is from a 4-part series in Premier Guitar on tone caps. And all 4 are worth a read if this subject is of interest to you.

    It's oriented towards Strats but the info and characteristics about the particular caps described are pretty universal: www.premierguitar.com/articles/Tone_Capacitors_for_Stratocasters_Part_1

    Quoting from article on Orange Drops...

    "These legendary caps were formerly produced by Sprague. Today they’re made by the American company SBE, but with the same old machines and the original tooling of the golden days. They are film types, available in different voltage ratings, sizes, shapes and values. The typical Orange Drop caps we know of are used in high-quality tube amps, especially the 630V types. These have the most “Fendery” tone when used in a Strat: slightly scooped mids and a tight, percussive bass response great for clean playing (and overdrive too). There are several different series available. The most common ones available from guitar parts suppliers are the 715P and the higher-graded 716P series. Both are polypropylene film types. The 225P and the PS series are polyester film types. These are the ones you should try in your Strat. They sound even more “Fendery” than the 715P and 716P series. As a film cap, the Orange Drop caps are non-polarized, so their orientation makes no difference... at least it should make no difference, but that’s a subject for a later column."

     
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  10. Tubejockey

    Tubejockey Member

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    I have used everything at one time or another. The tone difference in caps of different types is barely noticeable if at all. The ESR of ceramic disc caps has a noticeable effect (sometimes), but all other types I have tried are VERY similar. The tone difference in caps of different values is huge. I pay more attention to the specified value and the tolerance than anything else.
     
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  11. grayd8

    grayd8 Senior Member

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    They are a $0.63 delta on Mojotone, if that breaks your bank; you are in the wrong hobby.
     
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  12. KP11520

    KP11520 Senior Member

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    You're taking this WAY too personally. (Notice the "LOL"). Try the Mallorys. You might even find they sound a bit better. More articulate throughout the volume and tone sweeps.

    I have no problem paying the right price for real performance differences when the price is proportionate to the percentage of the overall performance and value. IME the peak of value is the Malory 150s.

    The one thing I HATE about them is when installing the wiring harness into a semihollow body. The twisting to get the harness through the F holes and installed, usually breaks one of the leads where it goes into the cap body. Don't ask me how I know too many times over. The leads are too easily sheared off.

    Imagine that happening with a Vintage Bumble Bee? I can see El Kabong episodes happening every time!
     
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  13. bulletproof

    bulletproof aka tarddoggy Premium Member V.I.P. Member

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    [QUOTE="KP11520, post: 8593313, member: 94013

    The one thing I HATE about them is when installing the wiring harness into a semihollow body. The twisting to get the harness through the F holes and installed, usually breaks one of the leads where it goes into the cap body. Don't ask me how I know too many times over. The leads are too easily sheared off.

    Imagine that happening with a Vintage Bumble Bee? I can see El Kabong episodes happening every time![/QUOTE]


    Definitely a frustrating job. First time I watched a guitar tech using fishing line,about fell on the floor and how simple it makes it!! :laugh2:
     
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  14. KP11520

    KP11520 Senior Member

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    Definitely a frustrating job. First time I watched a guitar tech using fishing line,about fell on the floor and how simple it makes it!! :laugh2:[/QUOTE]


    I use tubing that fits onto the top of the pots to feed through the holes. What a PITA even still! Traumatized by the Caps breakage.
     
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  15. bulletproof

    bulletproof aka tarddoggy Premium Member V.I.P. Member

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    I use tubing that fits onto the top of the pots to feed through the holes. What a PITA even still! Traumatized by the Caps breakage.[/QUOTE]
    Traumatized!!! Good word for it,brother!!!!
    :rofl::rofl::rofl:
     
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  16. mzblues1

    mzblues1 Member

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    FYI: Went with RS Guitarworks Vintage 50' s Kit and LUXE Bumblebees.

    So far so good, but probably going to change to SLE 101 MXV's
     
  17. T00DEEPBLUE

    T00DEEPBLUE Senior Member

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    I'm just going to leave this article here. I suggest that anybody who is considering spending $50 on a set of NOS bumble bee caps reads it.

    http://zerocapcable.com/?page_id=224
     
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  18. mzblues1

    mzblues1 Member

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    Great article which I totally believe to be 100% correct!

    However, although I probably did waste $50 on a $0.03 Cap, here's the problem: If we take everything "scientifically", then it certainly will not end with just questioning the capacitors.

    I'm guessing that different types of woods “accurately measured” will probably show very little difference plotted out as well.

    What about shielded cable jacks and toggle switches. If the cavities are well shielded will they plot similar to the non-shielded cables?

    Even the Vintage 50's vs. Modern wiring. Yes there is definitely a difference in the overall sound; but plotted out would it really be that different...I don't really know?

    And what about the king of them all...the mysterious original PAF Pickups in guitars that sell for a million $. These PAF's that are so revered are basically Seth Lover’s sloppily made pickups that didn't even follow his specs. He spec'd them with Alnico 5's and Gibson used what ever they could get their hands on that was probably cheap and available. No two pickups are wound the same, (since they did them all without machine counting or winding accuracy). So are “all” 1959 PAF’s really great?

    Are 1959 PAF’s definitely better then some of the repros of today?
    Are they going to plot out that much different then say a Throbak SLE-101 MXV if “scientifically compared”...I don't know?

    So what is my point: Yes “most of this stuff is probably marketing hype for sure". But if we go down that street, then this Forum needs to close down immediately since it is a big waste of misinformation, perpetuating a bunch of hype and other crap.

    Maybe we need to look at this less scientifically. Kind of like cancer patients who believe so much in a particular drug (that is really just a placebo), or the power of prayer that they end up “mentally” curing themselves.

    What I’m saying is, that if all of these “scientifically uneducated” people (including myself) on this Forum believe all of the mystery of the magical 1959-1960’s, and that inspires them to pick up a guitar, and because of that belief end up learning how to play great guitar and create great music today (which if plotted scientifically, would probably graph to be just as good as the music that EC or PG played in the 60’s with their real vintage LP guitars); then maybe these mods that we are doing do actually have some value.

    Speaking for myself; I got married 20 years ago, had a kid and for the most part, haven’t picked up my guitars for most of those 20 years.

    But now I just got my hands on a beautiful 1992 Gibson Les Paul Classic Plus. Changed all the plastic parts with CreamTone Vintage Design parts. Made my own conductive shielding graphite paint with some clear lacquer and graphite that I used to shield all the cavities (except the pickup cavities and under the plastic parts that I used copper film instead). Went with RS Guitarworks Vintage 50’s Kit and added the “$50” LUXE Bumblebees. And (without telling the wife), I am getting ready to drop $650! on some Throbak SLE 101 MXV's.

    So what happened for me is that now I have my amps set up in one room in the house, the guitar is on the stand with the cable plugged in, and I am inspired to get back to playing again!

    So again although I understand the accuracy of this article and do get your point; maybe there is some magic after all…
     
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  19. Juan Wayne

    Juan Wayne Senior Member

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    Ugh! What kind of a disgusting douche wrote that?

    That quote alone is enough to prove the exact opposite. Anyone claiming that a specific type of capacitor can be responsible for a mid-scoop or a "Fendery tone" (which I type as the douche-chills become more and more unbearable) in an otherwise unchanged circuit, is either talking out of their ass or trying to sell you something, and should be forced to lay naked on a gigantic bin of assorted electronic components until they can properly label each and every one of them with their sphincter.

    Do not listen to these idiots!
     
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