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Discussion in 'Vintage SG' started by Kevin James, Jan 9, 2011.
WOW! Very nice, congrats.... I'll double your money if you decide you want to pass it on.
Thanks for the offer Fletch, thats very generouse. This one is a keeper though, I don't think I could ever part with it. If I ever do decide to I'll let you know. I'm really looking forward to slowly but surely returning her to all original parts.
Thanks and good luck on this, you were insanely lucky. I've been contemplating investing in an early SG just like this as an affordable way to get an original PAF solidbody guitar. I've seen decent ones in the $11-13K range.
Glad the dealer didn't pull it out from under you too when those other guys were hawking you... some dealers are strait up nice guys.
WOW, SoloDallas must be busy, he has not yet commented on this beauty.
SCORE! Congrats man!
The restoration journey has officially begun. I just found and purchased an original crack/break free black 1961 PAF neck pickup ring for $125 from rareguitarparts.com.
I asked to make sure it wasn't off an ES series or anything that would have had a curve to the underside and they confirmed it was taken from an early 61 SG Standard. I asked and unfortunitely they didn't have the matching bridge ring. But, one is better than none! Now I gotta find an original matching bridge PAF ring.
Also I confimred the 1/2" "slight crack" at the neck to body joint is just the finish, there is no crack in the wood so the body/neck is 100% free of any cracks/breaks/repairs.
Here is another way to look at it.....the retail value of the original parts.
1. Sideways Trem $750
2. 4 Reflector Knobs $250
3. Pickguard $150
4. Poker Chip $150
5. Wiring Harness $350
6. Truss Rod Cover $100
7. Case (in good condition) $400
8. Strap Pins $50
9. Husk $1,250
10. Switch tip $50
11. Nickle ABR-1 $350
So guessing about $3,850 in parts. So yes it was a good deal and you obviously caught the dealer off guard or at the right time.
This guitar will always be a player however. With the missing parts, heel issue etc. is will never be a collectors guitar. So I would be careful how much you put into it. If it were me I would just get it in playing shape with some great aftermarket parts unless you really want to spend the time and money on OEM parts. IMHO it is a waste of time and money. This guitar can be a great player, but also a black hole if you go crazy on trying to get it vintage correct.
Thanks for the reply. Very good info to have on the value of the original parts. This is exactly the kind of info I'm looking for.
I agree with you, this will never have the value of an unmolested original. However, aside from the PAFS themselves which will clearly be VERY expensive, the majority of the other parts can be found for reasonable prices and based on that I would still like to get as many of the parts back to original as possible.
Also, this is a project and not one that I intend to finish over night, so adding one thing here, another thing there over the course of time I think this will be fine and will not break the bank. Tons of people go through GREAT length and at quite a bit of expense to painstakingly change parts on Historic reissue guitars and to have them aged to look exactly like a real burst etc and those will never be the real thing. This on the other hand IS the real thing, it just needs its parts back. When it gets down to the PAFS themselves I gaurantee you I will proceed with EXTREME caution and in the mean time I am really going to do my best to learn as much detail as I possibly can about original PAFS, the suttle differences found in them from year to year etc.
I should be clear though that ther is no heel issue. It was a small crack in the finish but not in the wood. There are absolutely no cracks/breaks/repairs to the wood anywhere on the head/neck or body.
Right on brother and I hope you are right. The previous owner felt there was enough of an issue to yank the PAF's from a stamped serial number '60 LP. Not trying to rain on your parade, however it might be worth your while to have it x ray'd to see if the crack does go through the wood. I have a 100% original 64 SG Standard with the same crack. I have left it alone, just one less story to tell. Good luck with your project and some better pics if you get a chance. You are more than halfway there with already having the side trem. My next thing would be the tuners. You can find them all day on Ebay but wouldn't wait too long before those prices go up again.
Wow! What a steal! You've got a gem-in-the-making, Kevin. Can't wait to follow this thread to see its transformation!
I agree with you regarding the PAFs. I've heard that no two of them sound the same, and even if you find a working pair, you can't be sure what they'll sound like until you mount them. Have you considered some of the clones, like Stephens Design or Rolphs?
Edit: Sorry, I just reread your original post. Real PAFs it is! I'm excited for you. Looks like you are in my neck of the woods. I was looking for a LP/SG just last month, and almost pulled the trigger on one listed on the Bay, albeit at a much higher price than what you paid. (Did I mention it was MUCH higher)? Now I wish I attended that guitar show that you were at! You snooze, you lose, I suppose. (But I'm seriously happy for you)!
Thats a great idea about x raying it. I'm going to look into that. Thanks for the idea and the encouragement.
And by the way, you are not raining on my parade at all. You'r giving an honest oppinion and at the end of the day, thats what I want... I don't want anyone to pump sunshine up my *ss. And the truth is I agree with everything you've said. Bottom line is I can put all the parts back on, but once an issues guitar, ALWAYS an issues guitar. I understand that and I'm comfortable with that.
Update. This is a copy and paste from the other board. They asked for some specific pics so... I'll leave those here to.
I took the guitar to a luthier tonight to get it checked and I humbley have to say that he did find the issue. The guitar suffered a neck break at the 2nd fret that was repaired pretty seemlesly and was therefor pretty dificult to see by a non expert like myself. I'll chalk this up as a valuable lesson on what to look for. I still think what I paid was well worth it. As a player this will blow a historic out of the water. Its the real deal and for less money so I am more than happy. Thrilled even.
Whatever caused the neck break at the second fret also impacted the joint with a 1" hairline crack on the treble side. The top of the neck/head was resprayed after the repair and restamped which explains why the font doesn't look right. Some time later after the head was respreyed it suffered more damage with what apeared to be just a huge scrape across the head/neck joint. Turns out that was a very fine hairline crack as well.
According to the luthier I took it to he said all repairs are very solid and there is no movement whatsoever. I asked if it needs any further repair and he said it is fine and in his oppinion does not need anything further done now, but that I should keep an eye on it and have it checked periodically and thats about it. I plan to get a second and third oppinion from two other luthiers on this.
He looked in the control cavity and had the same issue I did that it was pretty much imposible to read the codes but his oppinion was that everything looked to be spot on original aside from the ground wire which was already mentioned.
Long story short, it is what it is. It was represented as an issues guitar and thats exactly what it is. I am still very happy with my purchase and still feel it is well worth what I paid. Truth of the matter is that aside from a burst, this is my second favorite model and era of guitar and I could never afford one of these. The wood issues have been solidly repaired and have allowed me to afford this. I still intend to replace as many parts as possible over time, maybe I will still do PAFS, maybe not, don't know. What I do know is that once its up and running I can play the living shit out of this and not really have to worry about it. And that is exactly what I plan to do, enjoy it. Hey... even an issues vintage guitar needs a loving home, and I plan to give this just that.
Now, for the pictures you guys asked for. Please keep in mind as I said before my camera sucks so I have done the best I can.
neck pickup route:
Bridge pickup route:
And here is the hairline neck joint crack:
And the neck repairs. The large scrape really looked like just that a scrape that I couldn't see seperation in the wood but... it is what it is....
Aw hell man, those SG necks are so fragile it's almost impossible for them not to break! The bits where your guitar is glued together are now the strongest parts of the instrument.
I think you'll be thrilled once it's playable.
Yeah. The repairs are solid and the neck is so smooth I totally missed the repair until the luthier pointed it out. I'm a little embarassed I missed it but hey, thats why this guy is a prefossional and I'm not lol. Bottom line the guitar was not misrepresented to me in any way and even with the repairs I still feel it was worth evry last penny I paid. I asked myself if I could go back knowing then what I know know would I still buy it and without hesitation the answer is absolutely yes I would... in a heart beat. So all is well.
The way I am choosing to look at it is that these repairs are what made this guitar affordable for me so I still feel very blessed. Repaired or not its still a real 1960 Les Paul SG Standard and nothing can change that and its one I can play the shit out of and enjoy instead of leaving it to sit in a case because its to valuable and in some wierd way thats almost better (to an extent lol).
This is interesting to me (as the one owner of a '61 LP SG Standard) because I hadn't thought the SG came out until the '61 model. Am I wrong?
There are a few known examples of 1960 Les Paul/SG's. The model was INTRODUCED in 61, and they may all have shipped in 61, but some were constructed and stamped in late 60.
Here is another one (scroll all the way down):
And yet another one (again... scroll down towards the bottom):
SG Expert? - Page 3 - Les Paul Forum
I have sent detailed information and pics to Gruhns Guitars this morning for one of his online appraisals. We'll see what he says.
That is a score. Congrats on the deal. And +1 for the seller not pulling it out from under you.
I look forward to seeing the restoration taking place and I hope you enjoy the guitar. I think it is beautiful, the Mojo is dripping off of it!
(P.S. The world we live in, Imagine how much it would cost to get it 'aged' to look like that!)
Wow man that's awesome! I got a great warm feeling from that story, I hope I can stumble on something like that someday! The early 60s SG/LPs are great buys right now...