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Discussion in 'Amp Modeling' started by mdubya, Nov 15, 2017.
That's exactly what happened to me.. Like 50 times.. Yeah, I know. I have a hard head.. hahahahah
This is where the problem comes in, how do you capture that greenback in order to emulate it? You need to use some kind of microphone.
I know back when IR tech first started up alot of guys where using reference mics to shoot IR's in an attempt to capture the raw speaker sound without the coloring of any one mic. But it seems that it shifted away from that, being replaced by "baked in" mic choices.
You say you feel the Axe FX was designed and built based around studio use, but I disagree, I think it was just as much built for live use since the sound an audience hears is the amp and cab mic'ed up and coming through a PA system. Which is also why the Axe FX, and many other units, have so many routing options. It became pretty standard practice for guys playing live to run one output using cabinet sims out to front of house to get a clean capture of the guitar tone with no actual micing needed, and then route the other output with cab sims disabled to a SS power amp into a cab for stage monitoring of their guitar. It gives you the best of both worlds. I think it was just as much built for live use as it was studio use, but I think it was built with pro touring live use in mind rather than the local guy playing a small club.
I do agree with you though, the next major advancements in the tech definitely need to come in the area of cabinet simulation.
Well, it is a philosophical thing. There is no microphone. Just another layer of filtering to model the tone coloration of a microphone.
My Tech 21 British pedal has speaker emulation. No microphone emulation, yet the sound still comes through whatever powered monitor I plug into. And it sounds like an amp, not an amp and cabinet mic'd up for recording or for an audience. Yet many run them to FOH and that is what FOH gets, too, unless the sound guys choses to filter the sound.
Again, it is philosophical. I don't care how it gets to me, just that it sounds like an amp in the room, to me.
The real problem I have is those who try to tell us we are not thinking about it in the correct way. Bottom line; it either sounds good or it doesn't. If I don't want it to sound like a "produced" track coming through the speaker, then it is not good if that is all it can do (I am not saying that is the case, just making my point).
The $100 Mustang could always sound like a little amp, no problem. The AX8 can, too.
The blowhards (there are plenty of very helpful people there, too) at the Fractal forum love to pounce on people and tell them they don't understand how they should be listening to modeling. B.S. They are actually doing Fractal a disservice. They 1) scare away the casual player who wants to model an amp and speaker vs. a produced track, and 2) the Fractal units are more than capable of sounding like an amp in the room.
The fact that you can then go direct and create whatever you want as a recorded track is all part of it, too, but not the only part, and we shouldn't be limited to that.
When I used to record my live amps, producers were always disappointed that I got the sound I wanted pretty fast and easy. They always wanted to "produce" my track. Everyone else liked my recorded tone and just wanted the "producer" to make it fit/sit/sound good in the mix. I did the same thing recording direct with the Tech 21 pedal. I was lucky to have good tone, almost always, on my own.
My long winded point being: many want modeling to sound just like a Fender Twin (or Marshall plexi, or Orange Rockerveb, of AC30, etc) in the room through their $1000 FRFR speaker. And they should be able to. Anything short of that is going to leave a lot of people disappointed and looking elsewhere.
In fairness, I went for 20 years wanting no other tones than those coming through my 2204 with the options of a fuzz, OD, and Phaser. No delay, no reverb, no Fender tones, no Vox. I used to force myself into playing the Champ every once in awhile just to have a different perspective.
But I could most definitely see how limited my nephew felt with just 1 good tone, and a boost. He wanted to be able to toggle through scenes on the fly, also. He wanted a soundscape one minute, and a straight dry hard rock tone the next, followed by a slapback echo and a rockabilly tone the next. I haven't set up anything like that, though the AX8 can do it and is made to do it. He would use the AX8 to much greater effect than I do. It was eye opening to see! Plus, it was cool to see someone in the prime of creativity. I don't want to say those days are behind me, but they are fewer and farther between.
I don't have any problems whatsoever getting the amp in the room tone from my system. And I have had many many actual amps to make that comparision.
Well, it's kinda like this. If you don't know what you are missing you are not missing anything. I got my first clue to this when after playing many Marshalls I pickup up a Johnson Millennium. The first somewhat nice modeler. After that, I knew what I was missing and wanted to explore that.. The rest is history.
In reflecting back I can honestly say I could never go back to one tone from a couple amps. I am too ingrained in the ability to pick and choose whatever I feel like in any given moment.
I agree. But that was what the XiTone brought to the equation, that's what I was looking for from it. Mike (pwrmac) was quoting an older post where I questioned removing the mic simulation from the equation going direct to a powered speaker. For me, it is another layer of filtering. Nothing more, nothing less. There is no real microphone in there. Not AX7 tubes or EL34, or KT66, etc.
And regardless of how we get there, the end result is all that matters. No excuses needed.
I didn't have my head in the sand, I just loved my tone. I played everything I had a chance to play. The only stuff that came close (this was the early 90's up until about 2010) was other old Marshalls. But I have changed. I still love that tone. But I was playing my Champ a lot more and started try a lot of different things: Vox AC4, Champion 600, and eventually the Mustang.
The AX8 opens up whole new possibilities. I am still pretty simple but appreciate the flexibility to add in virtually any type of effect and setting and endless tone possibilities. Plugged straight into the 2204 still sounds good, but I have changed into appreciating more than just a few great tones.
Not really meaning you had your head in the sand so to speak. It's just that back years ago you played what you had or could afford and taught yourself to be happy with that. You never or we never had the ability to sample 220 amps and 15,000 cab sims.
It's like the old debate when people say they are happy with their tone.. But happiness is measured on a scale. It is not absolute...There is such a thing as being HAPPIER then one might have been
But if you are using most modern irs then there is a real microphone on there. The ir was shot with a cab miced with a specific mic. Maybe I am totally missing what you are saying?
You make a good point.
So my speculation that turning off the mic modeling might make the tone more "direct" is most likely misguided.
I am happy with what I have currently got.
BTW, for everybody, when my nephew was bothered by the XiTone tweeter the other night, he had the Input Volume on the AX8 all the way up, on "10" as it were, and was overdriving the input. When I pulled that back down, the clipping stopped. I should have turned up the volume on the XiTone when they wanted it louder. The nephew turns all the knobs on all of my equipment when he comes over. Nothing ever sounds the same after he leaves. He even twisted all the knobs on the Marshall, which I didn't realize until later, when it sounded tinny and weird. It is funny he changed everything then said the XiTone didn't sound good. Well, it did before he twisted all the knobs! Gotta keep my eye on that boy. He is the one who dealt the final blow to the already ailing Mustang with his heavy handedness, too.
I've been rocking the Tech 21 British pedal through the XiTone the last day and a half. It sounds amazing for what it is. I imagine their Fly Rig would sound similarly good and give you some 'verb/delay, and Fender like cleans. I had always toyed with buying a powered monitor just for the T21 British pedal, it sounds so good through one.
I have tried it through the QSC K8, too. And I still hear the characteristics I didn't like with the AX8.
I have also gone back and forth between the AX8 and the Tech 21. The Tech 21 holds its own amazingly well. It is limited to Marshall type tones, but it does those incredibly well.
I have been exploring some of the AX8 Marshall tones I avoided with the QSC, and they sound great through the XiTone.
I was hoping to spend some time yesterday playing and possibly making some demo videos, but no one would leave me alone long enough. That's OK, I will get to it eventually. I am just glad I have a moment to play here and there.
BTW-I found a couple of dings in one of my guitars from the less than careful nephew. Grin and bear it.
Even though I can't play jazz to save my life, I have been getting some very nice (I hesitate to go over the top and call them "beautiful" tones as I know there are some truly magnificent sounding amps out there) jazz tones through the Deluxe Reverb with the neck pickup on the 335. I mean, like, really nice. Somehow I managed to lay down a II, V, I loop with real jazz chords to noodle to. I need to try the 330 next, but it is so loud acoustically, I probably don't need amplification at all with it.
I have also been working on dialing in the fuzz and OD models on the AX8 a lot better. Having my own favorites to use in front has made this NOT a priority, but time makes me want to dial things in. The standard Tube Screamer is great and I am having some good success with the Tone Bender. Gonna work on the Fuzz Face next.
My biggest problem is the models are so sensitive, very small tweaks make a significant difference. It is very easy to go way over the top. I also tend to run my analog pedals above unity to great results, pushing the input of the amp or modeler. Again, I need to be careful with the modeled effects. But I am having more and more success. I still keep one pedal in front of the AX8, just because.
I am still digging the XiTone, using the pure FRFR setting exclusively, and learning, learning, learning.
^^^^^^Post up the chord progression you recorded. I want to play to it.
I'll see what I can do.
I just recorded the loop to a Looper app on my phone (looper pedal is dead, and I don't like playing over loops on the same setup).
The progression is E dim 7 > A dominant 7 > D minor 7.
Key = D minor.
BTW-the looper app is cool because it lets you edit the loop to start and replay when you want, so the timing is near perfect.
Better than I could do myself; 2, 5, 1 Dm backing track starts at 0:45.
I used the looper on the AX8 last evening. I am headed down a dark path with this! Usually, after 5 minutes of a loop, I am spent. Maybe it is because I have never really improvised over a jazz chord progression before (I am using the natural minor scale), but I am jamming for an hour at a time over this single 3 chord progression.
BTW- the E dim 7 I am using, I believe is half diminished.
A dominant 7
I am loving what you are saying because you remind me of ME... hahahah