Mandolin bros had a 58/59

Discussion in 'Vintage Les Pauls' started by geddy402, May 21, 2014.

  1. Jimmi

    Jimmi Senior Member

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    Ok, last comment before we let this go. I think we should clear the air. It is always difficult to see the objective view point. There are two populations of people that regularly post in this section. A set that have been friends for years and moved within the circle of vintage dealers including you, Frank, Tom, Joe G, Eric, Charlie, Gil and others and another set of, often younger posters who are getting into vintage guitars or maybe have been but not as invested....while I have been buying and selling guitars since I was 17 (now 43) I include myself in this catagory...so here is my take and from personal discussions with several of the regular posters who also make up that catagory, seems to fall in line with theirs as well.

    The issue here is a combination of things, many of which are only peripherally as a result of actions by JG. I think alot of what Fletch says here is right. JG is to some degree was his own worst enemy as the bravado ingrained in the persona he crafted he was dismissive and often condescending to many posters on the other forum basically taking the "I know everything and you just don't understand what I know" kind of attitude. When you are that agressive and don't treat others with respect, you foster resentment and people are less empathetic when you fail. "Pride goes before the fall" comes to mind. No one knew Joe G authenticated the guitar. He outed himself after not posting for years and preceded to tell everyone who questined it, it was right and if they doubted it, it basically just showed how stupid they were. And that included people who are in "circle" and on the list above. If it didn't come accross to those who know him that way, that is sure how it came across to those who aren't in the inner circle. You treat others with no respect then you have to expect a backlash. I think had Joe just came out and said "this is what I saw, I understand how people could look at it differently, in my judgment it is real, others are free to disagree" and left it there, then people would have still disagreed but it might have dropped at that point.

    I also think as some of his friends rushed to defend him, they were equally agressive. Understandable and to some degree I admire the loyalty. But the whole debate became about loyalty and if whether you were Joe's friend instead of about the guitar...instead of defusing the debate, it just focused it on Joe more and further escalated the defense and attack on those questioning the guitar....many of whom didn't know Joe or really care to discuss him. Then we had people taking somewhat dubious stances like "no guitar can be judged from a photo of any type" and then sack a guitar posted in the same forum the same week from just photos.

    The whole situation has left a bad taste and why it keeps resurfacing.

    As I said before, we are all learning and evolving as people...or at least should be and there are many lessons to be learned here including but not limited to how to handle professional mistakes, how to treat those you percieve as less experienced or knowledgable than yourself, and how to treat others who have made a mistake.

    I for one dont want there to be hard feelings and agree we should move on and return to talking about what brings us here and that is the guitars and players associated with them. Let the healing begin. :cool::cool::thumb:
     
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  2. Otto

    Otto Senior Member

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    Joe Ganzler never claimed to be infallible. He said it himself many times: I've made mistakes before, and I'll make them again.
    It goes with the territory. I know many of you must have found it distasteful that he seemed to be on such a high horse with his knowledge. At the end of the day Joe Ganzler was probably the most knowledgeable guy who actually deigned to SHARE his knowledge on a public forum and made it accessible to people who don't have Vic or Lou or Perry or Gil on their x-mas card list.
    It seems like some of is are still trying to watch the aftermath of a car crash that never really happened.
     
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  3. Otto

    Otto Senior Member

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    Anyone who allows a crazy cockatoo near his favorite pile of wood can never be considered a "cork sniffer" in my book. Rev, that crazy pet bird of yours can turn a guitar into saw dust in twenty minutes.
    Maybe the bird is a cork sniffer?
     
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  4. hoss

    hoss Senior Member

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    I cannot (due to financial reasons) and choose not to (because I like wraptail goldtops better)

    _AT THE MOMENT_

    this might change in the future :naughty:
     
  5. Otto

    Otto Senior Member

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    Ok, let's stop kidding ourselves...we are all cork sniffers over here. Otherwise we'd all be over at the Ibanez forum or practicing. You want to pretend that a $20k guitar is for the common man, but a $75,000 guitar isn't? Let's see if that shit will flush anywhere else in the world besides here.

    Viva Castro, Cuba and class warfare!
     
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  6. Jimmi

    Jimmi Senior Member

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    :)
     
  7. yeti

    yeti Senior Member

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    I have to agree with Jimmi on the personae that JG created on the LPF. He was the ultimate master of the condescending post, not doubt in my mind. I would go as far as saying that he and his stupid Gladys represents pretty much everything I cannot stand about the vintage guitar scene. So far so good, BUT that is just my impression, based on internet posts that ultimately don't reveal that much about the man and the character. He might actually be the exact opposite in person. After meeting TW I'd be inclined to say that if he thinks of Joe as a friend thats good enough for me. So I know better to use what (little) I know about Joe (from the toilet-stall wall called "the internet") to join in when the mob (yes , I still call it that) decides that it's open season on a forum brother.
    I actually feel that my dislike of Joe's online personality put me in a good spot to evaluate how fairly he's been treated, since
    A: I'm neither a friend nor a member of the club
    B: I don't now or ever will own a Burst because I think the prices are beyond comprehension. (Only exception would be if my friends Burst came up for sale, I'd attempt to buy that one for sure)
    and C: I had to put my "feelings" about the man aside when posting which allows for a much clearer view, IMO.

    I still think that he's been treated poorly by many members who, like Rev pointed out, have absolutely nothing invested here, yet revel in the shredding of Joe's reputation.
     
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  8. Actinic

    Actinic Senior Member

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    Let us forget about JG for the moment and think of Mr. Irsay. I wonder if he has any concerns about the guitar that is known across the internet as possibly not a burst. Also, what would any of the Burst dealers who have posted in this very thread do if said guitar came into their possession as a trade or consignment? Collecting is not a victimless crime.
     
  9. hoss

    hoss Senior Member

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    I don't think they would accept a trade were the guitar is presented as a real Burst and I don't think they will advertise it as a real Burst!
     
  10. eric ernest

    eric ernest V.I.P. Member

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    Spot on, perfect. A+

    One: Joe never SHARED any knowledge on this forum UNTIL he was caught up in the fake 9 0623 non-sense....and even then, his knowledge was incorrect.

    Two: If Joe would post any information on the LPF that he considered "proprietary," he would usually answer any direct question...with a question. That was a red flag to many of us who had no idea what he may be alluding to.

    Personally, I feel in order to "charge handsomely" for his services, Joe devised a whole bunch of lengthy "tests" that were meaningless to someone who really knows what to look for. You think a 6 hour authentication is a little "lengthy" for any guitar, particularly one that was determined legit? Of course.

    Another red flag.
     
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  11. Rich H

    Rich H Banned

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    Ok, in a flagrant effort to derail........

    So, I was in London on a sunny May afternoon, travelling in a cab to a studio in Chelsea to collect a 55 Stratocaster body that belonged to Ronnie Wood from his then guitar tech, who also happened to be Jimmy Page's tech at the time. I was meeting my friend at a rehearsal of a band that Jimmy Page was playing with.

    On the way there I get a phone call saying there was a change of plan. The rehearsal had been cancelled and Jimmy had gone out of town and could I meet my friend at Jimmy's place in Holland Park?

    I arrived at 'The Tower House' and was invited in. After a few minutes the conversation went to 'No1'. "Is it here?" I enquired. "You mean the Les Paul?" my friend replied. "Yeah. No1. THE Les Paul. The guitar Joe Walsh gave to Jimmy" I answered.

    My friend looked nervous. "Man, you really shouldn't be here and Jimmy wouldn't be happy with me showing you the guitar" he said. "I'll go fetch it" he said.

    Within a few seconds, pretty much as soon as the guitar came out of it's case, the sunny clear sky of a summers day in May immediately disappeared. Thunder. Lightning. Torrential rain. All out of nowhere. "whoa, that's freaky. Jimmy must know". "Yeah Rich, you shouldn't be here" We laughed. I took a couple of quick pics, shook my friends hand, thanked him for his time and left with my collar up, running through the rain to the tube station on Kensington High Street.

    I bought a ticket and made my descent to the platform. When I got to the bottom of the escalator I was confronted with a busker. The busker was playing 'Stairway To Heaven'. Weird. Like really weird. I got on the train feeling a bit spooked thinking, nah, just a freaky coincidence and put it out of my mind but, when I arrived at my destination, I stepped off the train, turned the corner and there was another busker playing "Hotel California".

    To say I was a little freaked out for the next few hours would be an understatement.

    True story.

    You've already seen the pics.
     
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  12. Jimmi

    Jimmi Senior Member

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    Can you repost them so I don't have to look? Or are those yours with it sitting in the purple lined case?
     
  13. Rich H

    Rich H Banned

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    Yeah they're the ones. Also in Vic's last book.
     
  14. yeti

    yeti Senior Member

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    Best post I've seen in a long time:dude:
    BTW, sniffing the cork is the easy part. Knowing how to process that sensory input is what separates the boys from the men.:cool:
     
  15. RAG7890

    RAG7890 Premium Member

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    :hmm:...............in simple terms, there are those that want this to go away & those that want to keep talking about it.

    Pretty simple to make it go away, stop defending JG & Mandolin Brothers. Every time someone posts a negative, someone counters & posts a positive & so on & so & so on.

    If the supporters stop supporting, the naysayers will have nothing to talk about.

    IMHO, every secret men's club will eventually fall on its sword. Glad I am a member here & not there, that is all I can say based on some of the crap I have read on the other Forum. Some of TW's recent posts were condescending & laughable to say the least.

    FWIW, I'd rather talk about something more interesting, like how many Bursts have had their parts swapped out by "reputable" dealers in the US. There you go boys, we now have something more interesting to talk about. :D

    My 2c FWIW.

    :cheers:
     
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  16. Rich H

    Rich H Banned

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    Sorry, couldn't resist. :naughty:

    [​IMG]
     
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  17. Fletch

    Fletch V.I.P. Member

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    That's cool, the guys that build the fakes are always looking for parts.


    Fletch
     
  18. RevWillie

    RevWillie Senior Member

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    Respectfully disagree Rudi. It will continue as long as people keep bringing it up. Whether it is all-out attacks on Joe, or the unsubtle digs of 'consumate' and 'loupes' (words used rarely if ever on MLPF before 2014), this may never end.

    Schadenfreude makes people feel good about themselves.
     
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  19. Rich H

    Rich H Banned

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    Respectfully Bill, the term widows peak wasn't used before 2014 either and that term will be used along with the term consummate when something appears consummate. The use of a jewellers loupe to micro-inspect a guitar then to publically declare that something is consummate when it clearly is not will continue to baffle me. I also think it's good to continue to point out something that is consummate for the benefit of those seeking to learn and recognise the difference rather than just accept the word of a single authority. The attempts to discredit anyone who dared to question that authority will also continue to baffle me.
     
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  20. Jimmi

    Jimmi Senior Member

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    Bill all respect but, don't you have to admit that some of this is Joe's own doing? Unlike you (who I have always found respectful and helpful), he was often rude and belittling of other posters who he felt like knew less than him instead of being understanding and educating like many here are. These were people who like him, had a passion for guitars but maybe not the knowledge or experience. Sometimes they were people with more expereince (and maybe knowlege). Instead of treating them with respect when he could have, he didn't. When you behave like that, you'd better be right and you have to expect sympathy harder to find if you aren't.

    No one roasts you, Tom, Mike, Charlie or Eric or most of the other long time posters if they are wrong ....if it were just the lust for seeing a big name go down, you would see more of it with other posters. Had he handled his interactions with others, including in this instance better, the reaction would be much different.

    Not saying I think it is right but if you are objective, you can see where it is coming from.
     
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