Les Paul Rewire. 22 awg cable?

Discussion in 'Gibson Les Pauls' started by sebass, Dec 30, 2017.

  1. ACEit

    ACEit Senior Member

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    This is the long explanation



    The short one is that if you just care to try .. you will find that in some cases the way the caps are mounted count indeed..
    As I said, Sometimes the difference is very subtle in other cases clearly audible in matter of compression of the sound... as something flatten out the sound or let it expand completely.
    Not a huge difference.. maybe not a small one even.. but a tiny difference nevertheless.. like the one you should have swapping stock cables with better ones..
    Adding very small improvementS takes to a substantial one.
    I know that many will not agree with the above.. but I don't really care.. I made my guitars playing better.. not only by my judgement but also by the one of other people hearing them...
    About vivanchenko affirmation that try to upgrade a guitar is a waste of time.. I don't agree at all.. it's part of the game and actually it give me some fun... moreover it give you a knowledge of how a guitar works and the importance of its components.
    Last but not least it increase the bond with YOUR instrument
     
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  2. yamariv

    yamariv Senior Member

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    OP means Original Poster.. I must say I'm disappointed you called your Chibson a Gibson Les Paul Standard when I originally asked what guitar you were working with..It's clearly not a Gibson and you get what you paid for. All the best luck in your rewire..

    You are on a Gibson forum, I'm not going to like, endorse or debate a Chibson vs the real thing.. :noway:
     

  3. Juan Wayne

    Juan Wayne Senior Member

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    I will agree on the last line, because it's absolutely undeniable.

    Now, about non-polarized caps that behave differently depending on how they're mounted, as an electronics engineer, I will call that a shit component and disregard any conclusion that can be drawn from it.

    I mean no disrespect to you personally by this, but it's simply a faulty piece and has no weight on determining the way non-polarized capacitors behave in general, just the luck of the draw. It might sound awesome, anyone who has experienced distortion in any way, shape or form owes that magical thing to components behaving differently from they're originally intended purpose, but that's that.

    It doesn't mean anything other than a component being pushed outside its specified specs, just as some caps might not behave as they're supposed to as per the datasheet. A properly built capacitor will be indifferent to current direction, and even then, if the piece were to be a faulty one, I doubt anything can be consciously pointed out.
     
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  4. brianbzed

    brianbzed Senior Member

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    Electronically speaking, the larger the wire,the lower the resistance. Use the largest wire you are comfortable working with. The type of insulation has no effect om operation, as guitars are not high heat or high current units.
     

  5. ACEit

    ACEit Senior Member

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    Juan Wayne,
    From a theoretical point of view I'm with you, and following your thoughts to the end someone will say that at a given target value all caps type play the same... but we all know that's not true

    But from a pratical one the truth is that I check ALL the capacitors before putting them on the guitar, playing with them connected on the fly on way or reverse...
    As I said w/ some types there is no difference (eg orange drops ) with others is audible.. Russian pio clearly show this behaviour. .. and on ALL the one I tested .. so is not a faulty piece but a costant due to the way they are made
    again.. It is not my intent to convince anybody. . I know it will be a waste of time on this matter.

    To decide if you'll belive to your books or to your hears is up to you

    :fingersx:
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2018

  6. ACEit

    ACEit Senior Member

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    Quality of the conductor counts too.. and it's true insulation has no effect on sound but as the external braid has to be soldered, from a working point of view it's important that the inner insulation doesn't melt easily
    ;)
     
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  7. brianbzed

    brianbzed Senior Member

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    I forgot! Yeah, your braided shield is used as a ground..if you have it. Quality of conductor? Again use the best you can afford and are comfortable working with. The debate still rages if you can hear the difference gold plated and more pedestrian conductor material! Electrically yours,Brian B
     
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  8. ACEit

    ACEit Senior Member

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    I Agree that there is no need to use esoteric materials.. good old copper will work fine..
    But as I said once I used this one

    https://www.allparts.com/GW-0837-000-Braided-Shield-Wire_p_1904.html

    It was made with some good section conductor but it seems not to be copper ...something silver ( the color I mean ). It plays awful
    Morevoer the inner insulation melt very very easily making it a pita to install.. actually it's impossible to weld the ordinary way but you have to detach part of the shield making it like a wire and weld while you put a screwdriver near the insulation in order to absorb the heat :mad:
     

  9. sebass

    sebass Junior Member

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    Hi guys so i just received my 525k cts pots. Where do they go based on value from lower to higher.

    I think neck would be highest value but what about volume vs tone, which pot should be closer to 500k, tone or volume and why? I will be doing 50s wireing btw. I saw someone posted this but i'm not sure it's correct. Thank you advance.

    My pots are

    507.5, 516.5 and

    519.2, 519.3 k - Those two are identical with value with +-0.1 would be meter tolerance rate.

    I also held meter prongs for 1 minute to allow meter to settle. Didn't touch the prongs not to add any resistance and pots were cranked all the way to max. For good measure i will remeasure them once more or two before i put them in.

    I also ordered copper foil tape to ground cavity of pots and pickups to kill humming if there should be any. Might as well do that also.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018

  10. ACEit

    ACEit Senior Member

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    Do you know you can trim the pots to the exact value you need without spend extra money for a selected quiver ?.. the same for the shielding. . I Use aluminium adesive tape intend for joining air conditioning ducts.. 50 Mt for few bucks
     

  11. sebass

    sebass Junior Member

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    What u thinking off adding resistor in parell? I don't know if in need exact value. Extra brightness may not be bad thing right?

    But what would be ideal setup volume higher values or tone and then neck or bridge?
     

  12. ACEit

    ACEit Senior Member

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    About volume vs tone. . I don't really know. ..
    My feeling is that volume pots is more fundamental. . But to be honest is just a feeling.
    About which value goes where.. I think that it is different for every guitar.
    It depends on the tone of the wood unplugged, the pickup you are using etc... chosing the pots position it's a way to fine tune your tone
     

  13. charlie chitlins

    charlie chitlins Senior Member

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    endial likes this.

  14. Juan Wayne

    Juan Wayne Senior Member

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    You're worrying too much about this.

    First off, no human being would be able to tell the difference in a 1% tolerance scenario. That's good tolerance when working at microwave frequencies, forget about audio.

    Now, a general rule, especially because I saw you stumbled upon the other (very dangerous) potentiometer thread.

    The higher the total resistance on a volume pot, the more treble you keep with the volume on 10, and also the more treble you lose as you roll down, because the resistance that was keeping the treble from sinking into ground becomes series resistance as you roll down, which now keeps treble from actually bleeding into the amp. Simple compromise you have to consider dealing with passive electronics. That's it.

    In fact, I like 300k on a LP for that reason. All I have to do is set the amp right and then no matter how low I go, I still have some brightness left. 500k pots feel like they go too dark without a treble bleed, and I don't like treble bleeds on a LP control layout.

    As for the tone pots, the shift in cutout frequency would be negligible to your ears. Just get all four ports in a cap, shake it and take them out one at a time.

    Quick edit: I rarely ever judge in these cases, but I'll be blunt because you asked for it.

    You now have more value on pots than guitar. Ask yourself why worry so much about the pots then. Will it make a difference? Consider this: one of the finest LP's I ever played was a faded Epi Studio, probably the cheapest set neck LP available in the store, no bling whatsoever, just raw LP. That alone would have been cheaper than a Chibson + CTS pots + extra work. It did not have a Gibson Logo, but it sounded stellar.

    You should keep the pots and use them on something else, if you ask me.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2018

  15. sebass

    sebass Junior Member

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  16. ARandall

    ARandall Senior Member

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    Actually not quite.
    The volume pot acts on the pickup by influencing the resonant peak. Yes you get more treble but its every frequency the pickup produces that is affected.
    Rolling the volume down does not then make the treble roll off more with higher value pots......the volume pot works quite the same way in dropping the volume down with the same type of tonal shift assuming the taper is just the same.
    Of course the tone pot attachment becomes more influential then because you add in a parallel resistance to ground.
     

  17. Juan Wayne

    Juan Wayne Senior Member

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    I understand the overall resonant peak is moved, all things being on 10.

    I didn't really want to get much too deeply into the complicated side of it (I've gone through the trouble of posting the math here before a while ago), mostly because the most prominent effect of the pot swap is neglected after rolling down the volume.

    Yes, the higher resistance does play a very significant role, since the series resistance modifies the total low-pass filter resulting in a treble attenuation much greater than you'd have with a lower valued volume pot. Just assume a 500k pot rolled down to a half, and you have 250k in series already, almost like a whole 300k pot rolled down to zero.

    That's how much series resistance you're adding to the whole system, which considering following impedances, i.e. the amp or the next pedal in the chain, results into much greater treble attenuation.

    Just as a visual example, I like this tool to show a basic view of what the effects are. Quite good for calculating treble bleeds too. https://drive.google.com/open?id=1xUXc3FyA0yyqkXyNBPMP3_u6TS5FTIbi

    By this I don't mean to diss 500k pots, which sound great on some scenarios, only to point out what the counter-effect might be on some situations, and why.
     

  18. sebass

    sebass Junior Member

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    I just measured the neck with digital caliper and it's '59 neck profile, often refereed to as "The Holy Grail of Guitars" Sweeeeeetttttt.

    When i'm done with it she will sing soooo purrrtyyyy. I'm cleaning up now inside pot cavity and will stain it with Crimson wood strainer to match outside color, then put copper foil later.

    I'm precise about details. It will be best Les Paul i can lay my hand on it and I won't be as good as it can play, at least no in distant future.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2018

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