Just Hired A Guitar Teacher

Discussion in 'Guitar Lessons' started by frankv, Jul 29, 2013.

  1. frankv

    frankv What Are You Waiting For? Double Platinum Supporter Premium Member V.I.P. Member

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    I figured it was a mode of G because it is the second scale form of G major. But it's interesting how my teacher is teaching me the modes. Because simply playing the A major scale starting on B and playing all the same notes of A major does not get you Dorian. There would still be 3 sharps in that case. As you said, A Dorian has 1 Sharp. Hence position 2 of the A major scale played starting on the 5th fret and not the 7th, Kinda makes sense to me.. As you can tell, I am a positional player.. forms and patterns for this feeble mind.. but it works for me.

    Any of this make any sense ?
     
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  2. HogmanA

    HogmanA Senior Member

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    The notes of the A major scale, started from B, does give you a Dorian scale. B Dorian.

    Each major scale has its own set of modes to go with it. The relationships between the scales remain the same (though the names differ as they are transposed).

    eg C Major. The mode associated with the second step of the scale (D), is Dorian.
    The key signature will be shared by those two scales. (no sharps or flats).


    I know what you mean about positional playing - but that doesn't mean being reliant only on the patterns, rather than the notes the patterns are made of.


    But with regards the patterns - I'm sure what you have just learned is the relationships between the patterns. ie, A major, and B Dorian. They share the same notes, but the pattern of tone, tone, semitone has been shifted by one tone (or moved up one scale degree), and that pattern will remain the same wherever you shift the pattern - but the note names will differ.

    (Sorry if I'm oversimplifying - I think you know this, but I'm just making sure).
     
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  3. FKO

    FKO Senior Member

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    Once you play and listen "enough", you will be able to tell the difference between semi and whole tone without "visual" assistance. When that happens, you will be free from forms/patterns. :thumb:
     
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  4. donlumber

    donlumber Premium Member

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    I start thinking about it and then it floats away and then I see it and then it's gone again. Kinda like a stereogram if you're not looking at it right.
     
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  5. frankv

    frankv What Are You Waiting For? Double Platinum Supporter Premium Member V.I.P. Member

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    Oh I can tell half steps from whole with no problem
     
  6. Sean0913

    Sean0913 Member

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    Well no, it would get you Dorian, but it would be B Dorian. But it's a lot like getting you dressed up in a nice suit and then leaving you alone. I'm trying really really hard not to raise eyebrows or be judgmental, which, by my even posting that, should let you know how that's going...but talking to you about modes, as shapes and names, is tripping my radar. I don't start modes until I have completed a whole survey into chords and tonal harmony, cadences, secondary dominants, etc, because without the context to understand how to USE that, it's really all just like "selling guitar magazines" in my opinion.

    Is he using chord scale theory, as a colorful musical device, or is he teaching modes, as in never leaving the single tonal centre, never grabbing the V of the derivative major scale, and hijacking the tonal centre, etc. ? I don't know. But the fact that he's even *there*, right now has me concerned. Like, where is he taking you? The very fact that he did not clarify two approaches to modes is in itself, concerning. Did he use and explain the derivative approach and/or the parallel approach, sufficiently, in other words?

    Best,

    Sean
     
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  7. frankv

    frankv What Are You Waiting For? Double Platinum Supporter Premium Member V.I.P. Member

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    Wow, where to start.. I think I should start by saying "thank you" for your viewpoints.. While I don't agree with your "attack" on my teacher I can certainly see where the things I wrote might invite you to do so..

    My teacher is a very well known seasoned pro who has played with some of the biggest names in music. Bad Company and Foghat being a few of those names.. While that really means nothing in the big pictures of things, I do respect his playing ability and over 40 years of playing experiences. If he tells me to do something or something is the way it is.. Well I will listen.. he brings a practical approach to my learning and not just reams of theory. He shows me a "mode" of playing that sounds fantastic and "out of the box" of just playing pentatonics". A way I can understand without studying music theory for 10 years.. My feeling about music is we play by ear and feel.. I will let others tell me technically what it was I played.. My teacher is this style of player and for me is perfect. All to often we get too deep into the why something is and forget the idea is to make music.. That doesn't come from pure theory alone.. At some point you need to forget what you learned.. As my teacher says, you need to learn it before you can forget it..

    So defend him I must.. Judge him you can because I invited you to do so..
     
  8. Sean0913

    Sean0913 Member

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    My only purpose of "judging him" would be as a teacher that is meeting your goals as a player. I have no other agenda.

    But you didn't come across as someone that was simply wanting to "learn new ways of playing outside of the box when it comes to Pentatonics". In fact all the things that you said, had questions and overtones that suggested understanding the why was important, and that was the basis for my comments.

    To wit:

    I figured it was a mode of G because it is the second scale form of G major. But it's interesting how my teacher is teaching me the modes. Because simply playing the A major scale starting on B and playing all the same notes of A major does not get you Dorian. There would still be 3 sharps in that case. As you said, A Dorian has 1 Sharp. Hence position 2 of the A major scale played starting on the 5th fret and not the 7th, Kinda makes sense to me.

    Those are not "hey cool, I learned a new scale". Those invoke and go into theory and how's, which is, not congruent with "he brings a practical approach to my learning and not just reams of theory." Obviously there's an agenda for learning and understanding some theory there, and that was what I was responding to.

    I did not form these ideas in a vacuum.

    I feel like I offended you to the point of needing to defend him, and for that I'm sorry. I'm actually on your team.

    I've already shared with you my concerns about teaching vs. pedigree, so I'm not going to beat a dead horse there. My only remaining point, and I'll close with this, is, unless he's teaching you a CST approach, or soloing over very small limited vamps, or drones, all you're doing is learning how to solo with Major and Minor scales, regardless of the name you give the scale, and that, is not "out of the box" even though for you, it may feel like it is, the truth is, its squarely IN the box.

    I will tread more carefully in future comments as it is not my intention to denigrate your experience or your relationship with your present teacher. After all is said and done, if you're happy and feel you're where you want to be, that's all that matters. I wish you the best of everything as you continue on.

    Best,

    Sean
     
  9. frankv

    frankv What Are You Waiting For? Double Platinum Supporter Premium Member V.I.P. Member

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    Sean

    No, I don't want you to tread carefully. I want you to do exactly what you are doing.. Please continue to do so.. You know how written word is. Sometimes the tone of the written word is very much different then the true meaning it is trying to convey. This is one such case of that.

    My post was in a "defending" stance and it was stronger then it needed to be.. Sorry if it cause you any stress at all.

    You are correct, I do want to learn the "whys" and will continue on that path. As a self taught player I most likely screwed up the application of theory by my teacher and misconstrued the entire lesson he showed me and is showing me.

    Many of your points in your past message he is and has been doing with me.. It is not just forms and patterns.. You couldn't know that by my clumsy post and for that I am sorry.

    I don't know why I got so defensive about him. I guess it might be because I like the guy very much as a person and teacher.. I feel he cares about me in a way I have not seen from my past 2 teachers. So I naturally react in defending his approach. Totally not necessary I know.. but that's me.

    So please, you keep responding to my posts here in this thread.. and if needed, you "judge" me slap me around a bit if need be.. Don't worry about offending me as that really can't happen. This is all good no matter what so thread on and thank you for taking an interest in my quest to become a better player.. It all starts there anyway.. Right?
     
  10. Sean0913

    Sean0913 Member

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    Well you have a good attitude and a teachable spirit, and that's going to take you a long way. It sounds like you've found the perfect teacher for your needs. So now, just enjoy the journey!

    If I have to get tough with you, believe me I will, because you asked me to, but I don't see that as an issue that we will ever need to become concerned with. As I said, I'm on your team.

    Best,

    Sean
     
  11. frankv

    frankv What Are You Waiting For? Double Platinum Supporter Premium Member V.I.P. Member

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    Thanks Sean,,

    For homework last Saturday I have a backing track he wants me to play to. Maybe I'll record one of my takes and post it here so you can evaluate if you like..
     
  12. donlumber

    donlumber Premium Member

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    Now hug it out or get a room! :)
     
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  13. Sean0913

    Sean0913 Member

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    Sounds good. That's what my online students do for their homework. They have to apply a concept that I taught them to a backing track and send it in. It's a great tool for seeing where they are, troubleshooting, and they are getting confidence with the things they are learning. I'm glad he's giving you things like that.

    Best,

    Sean
     
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  14. WholeLottaIzzy

    WholeLottaIzzy Senior Member

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    Just when I think of quitting guitar lessons things just click into place. Learning about how to target the right notes to get certain sounds. Eventually, I'll be able to dictate how you feel by the notes I choose to play. That's my ultimate goal, to be able to decide how I want my guitar playing to feel and not just "hey, nice minor pentatonic solo".

    My guitar teacher charges me for half hour, but today we spent around half hour talking about gear, then did an hour's lesson. Talk about value for money.
     
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  15. frankv

    frankv What Are You Waiting For? Double Platinum Supporter Premium Member V.I.P. Member

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    Wow, 7 months have gone by since I last updated this thread. Let me post a little bit on this.

    So I continued with my Guitar Teacher for months. It was a fantastic experience. I have learned so much about various techniques and especially regarding modal playing. I use to think it was such a hard concept.. Now I understand that it really isn't at all.

    I have become pretty proficient at the entire Major scale in all positions all over the neck. As usual, it's the interconnecting of these that is a constant work in progress. I have found my vocabulary of licks and stuff has really improved when I utilize all the tools in an interconnecting way. Pentatonic minors and majors, modes with the major scale and arpeggios.

    I have since taken off from seeing my teacher. Mostly because I wanted to become very proficient at what I have already been taught before I continue on.. Which I will.

    I suppose the next mountain to climb will be the Harmonic Minor Scale all over the neck.. I think it might be easier because it should be just a variation on the Major scale I have already learned.

    So that's it for now.. Sorry for the long delay in updating this thread. I don't think anyone really minded anyway..:thumb:
     
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  16. MorganPeline

    MorganPeline Senior Member

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    Hi, just started reading your posts. Very interested!! So how ddi he have you change the way you learnt the scales. why was it important?

    Thanks! Great post!
     
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  17. frankv

    frankv What Are You Waiting For? Double Platinum Supporter Premium Member V.I.P. Member

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    I do know why.. and thanks for asking..

    The way he had me learn them made it easier to visualize connecting them on the neck. They were straight up and down with little offset among the 7 patterns. I did not realize this at the time and he never told me why.. He could have and that would have made me understand his request better.. But he didn't for whatever reason.

    I have worked daily at these patterns and "modes" and I have to say it really had changed the way I look at t chord progression.

    Now the goal is to link all the chords to what mode best fit them without needed to do a trial and error hunt that I am doing now.. I love the fact that I lean on the pentatonic scale "a little" less these days as I try and make better phrases with all the notes and modes instead of just the 5 in the pentatonic.

    It was this that caused me to want to take the lessons and it was this that I got from him. I have stopped mostly because of time issue and not because I don't see any new benefit. My teacher is a gigging pro that knows how to teach and I will be returning to see him again in the future.

    I was going weekly but started to fall behind. I wanted to know the week prior lesson cold but sometimes I just didn't. I then would take off a couple weeks to learn then lessons completely and then continue on.

    Here are a couple of my recordings where I utilize what I am learning.

    https://app.box.com/s/jkn5m3fmuu4d7qmskzha66zi5ye5g11t

    https://app.box.com/s/2zxl6iy20u1oy2vdkwhpecr83ra8m310

    https://app.box.com/s/gm8v1cmr6puipn1w2xjrye07qe9vw9qe

    I listen to todays recordings vs what I was making 4 years ago when I picked up the guitar after 40 years off.. I am proud of my progress.. certainly in a very humble way.. but proud none the less.
     
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  18. MorganPeline

    MorganPeline Senior Member

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    From my limited experience, I think a good guitar teacher looks at your strengths and weakneses and comes up with a long term destination for your learning but also gives you short-term goals/lessons to get you there.

    I'm doing a different route (Jazz as opposed to Blues or Rock) right now as my teacher is quite into Jazz. We've spent quite a few months learning chords and different scales. But now it's getting interesting. He's given me some Fake books which only have Maj7 and 7 chords and the guitarist has to figure out what chords (tensions) to use.

    So his plan is basically in 6 months time, I'll be able to look at any Jazz standard chord chart and come up with my own substitutions and also eventually improvise over the whole piece and sound like I know what I'm doing.
     
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