Intentionally Fading a Finish?

Discussion in 'The Custom Shop' started by PermissionToLand, May 20, 2017.

  1. PermissionToLand

    PermissionToLand Senior Member

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    I doubt it would take years. Even automobiles, which need the most durable finish types available for obvious reasons, will fade from exposure to the sun. Laqcuer is nowhere near as durable as those finishes.

    It's already a light matte thanks to the VOS treatment. And unfortunately, Gibson doesn't offer brown on SGs except very sporadically, and not typically on models like the '61 RI or Historic. I would love a Walnut '69 SG but that is far beyond my price range. I also get very personally attached to my guitars so I don't go selling all willy-nilly over a single thing I'm not totally happy with.

    Thank you, it's a Historic Standard. A refinish would be going too far for me. I love the feeling of the VOS treated Nitro as it is.

    2007. Reading posts on this forum there seems to be a great deal of debate over whether the new dyes fade or not, or how long it takes. There were several posters who got their modern Gibsons to fade to some degree, so I don't think it's impossible.

    Your last comment contradicts your point though. A guitar case is not hermetically sealed. So they will still be exposed to oxygen and "atmosphere" whatever that is supposed to mean. The only difference is exposure to light.

    And also, your '70 SG does not support your point, as early '70s SGs are known for finishes that fade very easily. It is very hard to find one that hasn't faded. Here's a '73:

    [​IMG]
     
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  2. vintageguitarz

    vintageguitarz Member

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    I have 4 "50's", 11 "60's", 6 "70's" Gibson's presently in my collection, a few dozen more I've bought and sold or traded over my 60+ years, while you have NONE in your listing, so I think I'm a far better EXPERIENCED owner with knowlege of what fades and what didn't and why. Gibson's original HSC's had tightover-lapping lips and kept out ANY air-circulation, if you actually own a vintage you'd know this. It's NOT O2 that is the detriment the finishes, it's OZONE, ask any car paint professional that know the chemistry of paint. A major cause of damage to finishes is exposure to Temperature Changes and Moisture. A very good HSC also protects from these. All these factors are parts of "Atmosphere", bud.

    I have a 1960 Melody Maker Double "Fat" PuP in Sunburst, always kept in a early 60's Les Paul HSC and the sunburst colors are nearly original. Got an explanation for that one pal, that doesn't own any Gibson's before the late 80's??

    My '70 SG Std lives in it's original Gib HSC when not played and that's why it isn't faded, and neither is the SB faded on my 1953 Gib L-50, my '56 ES-225T (or my 57 ES-225N), or the natural brown finish on my 1968 ES-150DC, the "Brown-burst" on my 73 Les Paul Deluxe or my 73 Les Paul Special or my 1978 ES-175D Sunburst .... because they all live in those highly protective original Gibson HSC's of the period. So I guess that shoots your theory that 70's Gibson's are prone to finish fading! The stains and finish materials Gibson used were no different on an SG or a Les Paul or and ES model, period. It's ludicrous to think otherwise.

    The only guitars that are moderately to heavily faded are those owned but dopes that abuse their instruments, treating them like a pine 2x4 left out in the open, instead of like a fine instrument.

    Gibson Melody Maker 1960 Fat.jpg L-50_1953_mine.jpg Twins_56_ES-225N_SB.jpg 1973 Les Paul Special mint.jpg Gibson 1968 ES150DW Jazz Model.jpg Gibson 1978 ES-175D Sunburst.jpg

    Except for my '58 Les Paul Jr which I've owned the longest and played the most out and on the "road", spending the most time out of a premium Gibson OHSC, none of my well used Gibson's from the 50's, 60's or 70's are observably faded because they were kept in top HSC's and out of the atmosphere (and sun).
     
  3. PermissionToLand

    PermissionToLand Senior Member

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    While I doubt you will listen, here we go...

    First you start with a fallacy that simply owning vintage gear makes you an authority on the subject. It does not. Also, my brother owns a '58 Gibson L-50 which I have had plenty of time playing and working on. Not that it matters; it doesn't.

    Now, yes a case will keep out air-circulation, but not air (and you don't need a vintage case to know that, come on). So, now you've changed your claim from the vague "atmosphere" to "ozone".

    It would certainly have helped if you'd linked to some scientific evidence. I did a little digging and this is what I found; while ozone does fade paints, it is not the most detrimental to finishes, and nitrocellulose is particularly resistant to its effects:

    https://books.google.com/books?id=QkErAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA653&lpg=PA653&dq=ozone+effects+on+nitrocellulose&source=bl&ots=KIN6lQXZV0&sig=bZSN5YwVwKzDQPKg3XQinV07mEk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiC-YvR1-nUAhUK3IMKHRjuDc0Q6AEILzAD#v=onepage&q=ozone effects on nitrocellulose&f=false

    "The most definitive study of the effect of air pollutants on paint... it was found that in all cases, coatings were affected more by sulfur dioxide than by ozone"

    And yet, when it comes to nitrocellulose, specifically, "no effect". And that is at 1 ppm (parts per million). Ambient levels of sulfur dioxide in the US are around 1.3 ppb (parts per billion).

    Further down, "Color fading: reaction of binder or pigment in presence of sunlight"

    Now, even if we take your word, simple logic would dictate that when there is sulfur dioxide and/or ozone in the air, it will also be in the air that's trapped in the case. Circulation makes no difference. So again, we come back to the only difference when being put in a case being exposure to sunlight. Unless those old Gibson cases had a sophisticated system of hermetical sealing or pollutant scrubbing, they cannot protect your guitar from air pollutants.

    No, this is a well known fact. Ask Kris Ford, the resident Norlin expert. Yes, the finish materials were the same, but the colors were not. Red pigment degrades the fastest because it absorbs higher energy (shorter wavelength) light. The more energy that is available, the more likely it is that reactions will occur. And SGs are famously what color?

    Frankly, you should take a long hard look at the hubris and immaturity you have displayed here. It is disturbing that you have lived such a long life and failed to learn this, and not to speak of what you do not know.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2017
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  4. geochem1st

    geochem1st V.I.P. Member

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    This is totally FALSE. Sunlight, heat, and moisture are the main causes of fading of paint. UV penetrates deep into a coating, and does not just effect the surface. Heat expansion and cooling causes the cracking.

    Again, totally FALSE.


    I really hope that this is your last post on guitar fading since you really don't have a clue. Even if the guitar spent 100% of its time in a case, that does not protect the guitar from heat and moisture, which will cause fading. Early 60's color formulations changed at Gibson to make them more colorfast than the 50's.
     
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  5. vintageguitarz

    vintageguitarz Member

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    I'm certainly not wasting my time on Schmuck "Posers" like you clowns. You're expertise in guitars are your late 80's and 90's cheap Japanese and Chinese made toys, not a true vintage American guitar in the lot. I posted my evidence with actual vintage guitars I own and you posted BS with a lot of puff and no evidence. One clown above states he knows what goes on in a vintage OHSC with air-flow and doesn't state any evidence, doesn't even own one .... probably never even seen one in person. Grow children and own some before you claim to the evidence. Puff puff puff .... blow it up you know where.
     
  6. geochem1st

    geochem1st V.I.P. Member

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    One word: Science


    from the Library of Congress:
    https://www.loc.gov/rr/scitech/mysteries/colors.html

    Florida Solar Energy Center (University of Central Florida):
    http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/en/consumer/buildings/basics/windows/fading.htm

    Physical Chemistry Stack Exchange:
    https://chemistry.stackexchange.com/questions/29445/why-does-sunlight-cause-colors-to-fade

    Don't like the government or centers of higher education? How about a small business residential painting company:
    http://jerryenospainting.com/what-sun-does-to-your-exterior-paint/

    How about the American Chemical Society, the industrial chemists of America:
    http://cen.acs.org/articles/94/i5/Van-Goghs-Fading-Colors-Inspire.html

    It doesn't matter how many vintage guitars you have (and I have owned and played some) What you lack is critical thinking and a sound understanding of science. You just make shit up and post it as fact, when it's misinformation at best, outright lies if we believe that you really know better.
     
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  7. PermissionToLand

    PermissionToLand Senior Member

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    Mr President, aren't you supposed to be running the country?!

    0dcaee10-e233-11e4-b2b5-21f03bb56267_willy-wonka-gene-wilder.jpg
     
  8. PermissionToLand

    PermissionToLand Senior Member

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    Maybe I'm jumping to conclusions here, but I am beginning to suspect he may not care about science, evidence, facts, reality or logic...

    It is truly frightening that a person could live for so many years and utterly fail to learn anything about science, humility and basic human decency. Not to mention being unable to come up with anything better than grade-school insults. Adults use sophisticated snark and derision.
     
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  9. ARandall

    ARandall Senior Member

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    IME from building clone guitars using the right dyes and wanting to mimic a vintage hue, they fade WAY quicker using the UV in the sunlight than having them sitting inside out of a case. In fact the rate of fading is SO much quicker (in the range of 10,000 times more rapid) that there is no question that UV is a more major catalyst.
    As a comparison something done in maybe 45mins outside in direct light is comparable to a year spent indoors.
     
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  10. Robert Arthur

    Robert Arthur Senior Member

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    I have an 1980 special in that color and it also looks black unless in direct sunlight. would not change it though. Its well kept and just beginning to check.
     
  11. Kris Ford

    Kris Ford Senior Member

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    I had a '71 SG Deluxe that was almost dead mint..ZERO yellowing, and it actually got binding bleed! It could have faded if in direct sunlight, but didn't test that theory out..

    They used a different red from like '71/72-'74..those ALL fade pretty much, like this one:
    [​IMG]
    Some very unevenly..like the front can be totally washed out, and the back still retain red..they must have went to a more aniline based dye. Wasn't wood dependent either..I had a maple body SG-I do the same thing..it was basically brown, except under guard and control plate.

    My own SG started Walnut, and has faded some..a lil lighter than a Walnut '74 I had, and I had a VERY dark Walnut '69, which was almost black..but looked like dried blood in direct sunlight..
    (this is in the light..just a lil darker in person..hard to capture the true color! The beauty of Walnut IMHO..)
    20170703_113218_HDR-1.jpg
    Out of the light:
    20170703_115014_HDR.jpg
    That's the beauty of 'em to me..they start off ONE color, but once it was released to the wild..it's anyones guess how the color will look later on in it's life.

    Can't speak of the new ones, except if it isn't aniline dye, the result may not be the same..
     
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  12. ARandall

    ARandall Senior Member

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    The dyes can fade or not fade and still be aniline. I have had both......and in fact I think Gibson would have used the non fade type from 1960. Whether or not they moved to a more synthetic dye as they moved away from the small factory to production-line type operation. Nowadays only the custom shop uses aniline - but thats a non fade type as they want the reissue colours to stay what they are sprayed as.

    But everything will fade given time. The issue is that most things that are colourfast and end up fading just look anemic and washed out.
     
  13. Satellitedog

    Satellitedog Senior Member

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    I didn't mean for you to have it refinished right away, I suggest turning to a refinish/paint and finish specialist for advice, and leave a full refinish as a last resort.

    Also, don't know if you remember, but there was an art restaurator from Belarus in the Luthier's Corner section, who built a stunning period correct aged LP. He or another painting restuarator could probably suggest a solution.
     

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